#230: What Is a Null Test? Stop Guessing Your Mix Changes with Eric Mitchell

Null testing is one of the fastest ways to prove what actually changes in a mix. In this episode of Inside The Mix, Marc Matthews sits down with mastering engineer Eric Mitchell to explain what a null test is, how phase cancellation works, and how producers can use null testing to stop guessing and start making confident decisions.

Built for beginner to intermediate music producers, this conversation answers common questions like: What is a null test in audio? Do similar plugins really sound different? Can meter settings or power conditioners affect digital audio? Marc and Eric walk through real-world null test examples, flipping polarity, aligning samples precisely, and listening only to what doesn’t cancel.

Together, they put popular studio myths to the test. Do plugins built on the same code cancel perfectly? Can DAW meter scaling change your sound? Does file integrity survive cloud storage and drive transfers? Eric shares clear results and a calm framework for evaluating bold claims without getting lost in internet noise or expectation bias.

Listeners also learn how to run a null test step by step: use identical source files, line them up sample-accurately, invert polarity, and expect differences more often than silence. The episode covers the limits too, why analogue passes won’t fully null, and how to use measurements to support musical taste rather than replace it.

If you’re tired of second-guessing mix choices or buying duplicate tools, this episode shows how null testing can save time, money, and mental energy.

TL;DR: Null testing uses phase cancellation to reveal real differences between audio files. Marc Matthews and Eric Mitchell explain how to run null tests, bust audio myths, and make confident mix decisions backed by evidence

Links mentioned in this episode:

Follow Eric Mitchell

Check out Kaptive Audio

Chapters

• 0:00 Cold Open: The Null Test Debate
• 0:27 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 1:41 What A Null Test Is
• 6:39 Why Our Ears Get Fooled
• 9:59 Real-World Uses And Converter Tests
• 15:26 Plugin Myths Busted With Nulls
• 19:38 DIY Experiments And File Integrity
• 22:42 When And How Often To Null Test
• 26:41 Fighting Internet Audio Myths
• 30:49 Pro Tools Meters And DAW Sound Claims
• 35:00 Best Practices For Beginners

Transcript

Eric Mitchell: 0:00

Steven Slade actually came into the thread and was like, I just did a null test. This is just bullshit. Like then a bunch of other people were like, I null tested, I null tested, it nulls, it nulls, it nulls. But this guy was like ready to die on that hill. He's still just like, I don't care what you all say, I could hear it. And it's like, dude, you are a professional audio engineer, like you're you're arguing against a null test. Like, that's like arguing against that the earth is is flat.

Intro: 0:27

You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews.

Marc Matthews: 0:32

Hey folks, welcome to Inside the Mix, where beginner producers learn practical music production and mixing techniques from real-world experience. And today I am joined, I say today, in this episode, I'm joined by returning guests. I think it's for the third time now, mastering engineer Eric Mitchell. He's going to talk through the value of null testing and the human condition as it applies to audio. Uh, Eric, welcome back. I know we were chatting off-air, but um, how have you been? How are things?

Eric Mitchell: 1:02

Very good, very fortunate to be keeping busy and keeping the wheels moving. So very thankful for that.

Marc Matthews: 1:09

Yes, yeah, I know that feeling. Uh, this is the first episode or the the interview, rather. Actually, it's not the first episode, but it's the first interview of 2026. So um, audience listening. Congrats. Yeah, thanks, man. We're just uh I think this is we're in season six now of the podcast. That's wild. So it's slightly tangent here, but yeah, it's uh when I we you get this end-of-year rap from Buzzsprout who I host with, and I was just like, and he was like, You've done five years of podcasting. I was like, that's wild, man. Five years. That's wild, man. It is congrats. Yeah, yeah, cheers, mate. I appreciate it. It is it's um, yeah, uh and it continues to grow, which is nice. Um, so folks, if you're not familiar with Eric, he's uh here's what you need to know he's a mastering in engineer, as I mentioned, with 20 plus years experience helping artists make decisions that actually translate. And today we're unpacking where measurement helps and where it gets in the way. So by the end of this episode, you'll know what a null test is or and why it's useful, and also how it could be misleading. Stop using null tests as second good second guess good decisions and uh learn a framework for trusting your ear. So if you've ever struggled with null testing or just don't know what it is in general, and understanding how it applies to audio, this conversation is for you. So I think probably the key part to start here with is if you were to explain what a null test is to a non-technical artist or client, how would you do that?

Eric Mitchell: 2:29

So a null test is basically um a means of verifying differences between two signals. For example, if you have if you're trying to test like the results of one plugin against another on the same mix, you know what are the differences to those? Because ultimately the process results in a a subtractive mechanism where the null test will either null, which means that there is no difference and you get silence, or it will just show you the slight differences between the two. And so explaining what it is also requires a little bit of explaining of uh how it works, I guess. Um, it basically involves phase cancellation, which I I don't know if everybody will know what that is, but the I'm a very visual person, so the way that I like to describe it is like if we're thinking about this, you know, visually in your mind, just um in terms of like a basic sine wave, which you know is kind of like an S on its side. Um, if we actually take that and then flip it, so now it is an S, you know, and you're seeing the waveform like this, you can imagine a speaker that's essentially telling you the path of the speaker. So you have your middle line, and then you know the waveform crosses back and forth over that line. So you have positive and negative phase. So positive phase is when the speaker is out, and negative phase is when the speaker is in. So if you're watching the waveform, you're seeing the physical action of the speaker moving, going in and out. And so now what phase cancellation is is let's say you that your signal is going out first and then in. If you reverse the phase, you're essentially making it the opposite. So now the speaker's going in first and then out. So if you have two signals that are the same and you reverse the phase on one, you now have one signal that's telling the speaker to push out, and the same exact strength signal telling the speaker to push in. So that cancels each other out, and you wind up with a speaker that doesn't move. So it's kind of like a push-pull when you flip the phase. So what ends up happening there is when you have you know these two signals you're trying to compare, you flip the phase. If they're identical, they cancel out because the speaker isn't moving. But if one has a slight difference, it will either you know allow the speaker to slightly move in that direction of the phase or whatever, which gets the sound, and that's what you wind up hearing. Um, and so that's obviously just you know basic phase cancellation on a side wave. When you have a whole mix with a a lot more frequencies going on, that cancellation you know can come and go. It's not just you typically a stagnant thing. But the the reason why you would ever want to do this is because you can essentially remove the human condition. Like a lot of times we say, Oh, I think this sounds this way or that sounds that way, or I think the mix sounds better with this compressor than that compressor or whatever, and you want to compare one to the other. Of course, you want to listen um and listen for those differences, but you know, humans are not infallible. And my favorite example to give, which I anybody who's done like audio long enough has done this, where you're sitting there and you're tweaking the plug-in and you're hearing differences, but then you realize it was bypassed something and you're like, what the heck? Like, I heard differences, but it's because your brain is a lot more powerful than we think, it'll fool you. And so um, this is just a means of trying to like remove that human condition and and validate what's there. So without doubt, you know what I mean? Kind of like the scientific method.

Marc Matthews: 6:20

Yeah, I like what you said about flipping the sine wave, so it's it's vertical because I never thought of it that way with regards to phase cancellation, and actually, like you say, visually thinking, okay, well, that's the the speaker kind of moving in and out and flipping it that way. It's a really good way to I think articulate and then visually represent phase cancellation, which is quite interesting. Um, so with null testing, uh with regards to beginners, what do you think is the most damaging misconception surrounding null testing before we dive into actually like how it impacts how we might use it in a workflow?

Eric Mitchell: 6:51

Um it depends because it these days with the internet you have all these kind of different tangents and little pockets where things develop, and you know I I guess it'd probably be easier for me to just to say like where where I think it is applicable, which is like to answer questions where you think you're hearing something but you're not sure, and you want to verify it. Uh like for example, in my mastering studio uh a couple years back, there were like three really prominent converters on the market that everybody was arguing over. I believe it was like the um the hilo, the uh uh new the merging Anubis and the um cranesong stuff. And so everybody's saying, like, well, no, this one's got better transients, and no, this one's got this, and this one's got that. And so we a friend and I, we like printed loops through all of them, and then you can null them with the same audio samples, and then you can null them against each other, which is just showing you the difference between the converters, so you can hear, like, oh, okay, this one has a little bit more top end, this one's a little more round in the bottom. And so null testing essentially says, like, okay, here's a signal, here's another signal, I'm gonna subtract one from the other and what's left over. Because you can't do that with two different songs, that's kind of pointless. It has to be like, you know, the same material. Um, but when you do when you subtract the null away, you're if you if there's nothing there, then they null. But that's very rare. So like the the way people phrase it about null testing is like there's only one reason things will null. There's a million reasons why they won't. And so, like, very rarely will you actually get the two things completely null, that they're identical. Um, and if they do, then you're you're certain those signals are the same. But another great example was uh this is actually probably really applicable because this is something that gets said a lot in the industry. I had a a friend who's actually an incredibly talented engineer, and he, I forgot how we got on topic, but he was just like, Oh man, I hate that the UAD plugins are 250 bucks and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, why? You like, I mean, yeah, they're expensive, but like why in particular? And he's like, Well, I could get the Vertigo plugins from in the plug-in alliance bundle, but they're 250 from UA. I'm like, just get the plug-in alliance ones. He's like, but the UA ones sounds so much better. And I'm like, dude, they they sound exactly literally Brainworks made the plugin for both, they are identical. They they will null. And he's like, No way. He's like, the UAD processor makes it sound more analog. And I was like, dude, it's it's not a processor, it's a DSP chip, it's just saving your CPU, it's not affecting the sound, it's still digital. And he he he was just very stuck on the narrative from the internet, and I was like, We're gonna do a null test together. And I was like, here's what we're gonna do. So we did, we printed, you know, 30 seconds of audio in the DA through a the UAD vertigo compressor and the same settings and audio through the plug-in alliance vertigo compressor. Flipped the phase on one, and they 100% nulled, which means like they were positively identical. And so this is like a great example of you know, to answer your question, like how when I would use this tool uh in a in a way to you know diagnose the situation or find an answer. Because in this case, this was a definitive answer for this person. Look, regardless of what you believe or what you want to think or what the internet will tell you, these two plugins are identical. There's literally no difference in the output. Save your you know $250 and get the plugin line subscription. So, like a great example of how that can help you in a case where you there was no way our ears could have positively told us if those two compressors were identical. You know what I mean?

Marc Matthews: 10:57

Yeah, that's uh that's very interesting what you mentioned there about the the two uh different vendors, yeah. With the null test, the plugins that sound the same, which is and I the the the what you mentioned there about the internet narrative and sort of um combating and going against the internet narrative, which I think is quite important to have tools at your disposal to be able to do that because depending on where you go and different watering holes, you'll see various different people say various different things. So being able to actually think exactly you know what, I've got the tools at hand here to be able to try this out for myself and come to my own conclusion versus reading someone's what they've experienced, which is may or may not be right, and you don't know where if it's a reputable source or not. So being able to do it yourself is incredibly powerful, I think. So, with regards to like if you were to get started with null test, you've never done it before, and you just want to get your feet wet with it. Is there is there a type of source material that would be better for a beginner to use? Because you mentioned there before. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric Mitchell: 12:04

Um I mean, I'm afraid to say this just because it's so general, but like obviously YouTube, there's like a lot of good stuff on there. Um I I should I should have thought ahead and found like a had an old test video I could have plugged. But um, like I would say this probably really it's really just like a process, and there's just a few specific things that you kind of have to ensure are in place, or else you'll get inaccurate results. The biggest of which uh main two is it needs to be the same audio, so like two different versions of the same source material. And then the second most important thing is that both both bounces have to be completely sample aligned in your DAW. Because if if one of the clips is even just one sample off, the the results won't be accurate because in order for nulling to work, the signals have to be identically aligned. And so typically, you know, you can even occasionally get you'll do two bounces, and maybe there's a you know the slightest little difference in what the beginning of one of the files or something. So I always just hyper zoom the timeline and just make sure, like, you know, find a spot where there's a sharp transient, like typically like a kick on the one or something, and then I just zoom in as far as I can to make sure that the the actual samples are aligned, and then beyond that, you just need a utility that allows you to uh reverse phase, which most odds have something in there that'll do that.

Marc Matthews: 13:38

Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking like the Logic Pro uh gain plug-in as the ability to flip face, but it it raises an interesting point, and this is something uh like going way back into my memory bank here. And I remember when I was doing my my degrees and stuff, and I was having a conversation with someone, and they were talking about how um with digital files, ones and zeros, binary and whatnot, they were talking about how they don't like they do they want to do as few sort of um what am I what am I getting at here? Like file iterations with regards to like copy pasting, moving the file onto different mediums. So that's what I'm getting at. So move yeah, moving it from your hard drive to the cloud, then downloading it or moving it from your hard drive to a to an SSD or to another drive or something. And their their argument was in doing so, it's gonna have a potential impact on the actual source file itself. I don't know if you've ever seen that in or read that in conversation or done any null testing on that. Because now you've mentioned null testing. I'm thinking to myself, that would have been a good opportunity to dispute, dispel or dispute that potential th theory there. Because I was kind of like, in my head, I was like, ah, it's gonna have no impact. I don't know what you think.

Eric Mitchell: 14:52

Yeah, that's that's a perfect scenario. Like in that test, like let's use that as a hypothetical for the listeners. Like, how would you set up a null test in that scenario? So, what I would have done is taken that file or a file, uh, you know, direct from the DAW, left it on your desktop, then did another print, then upload it to Dropbox, move it to your hard drive, put it on a thumb drive, bring it back. You move it all over the place, then you bring it back, put them both into your DAW, flip the phase, and null. And um, I would I would have bet in your scenario they would have nulled.

Marc Matthews: 15:24

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well. There you go, audience listening. Give it a go. If you've never done it before, uh give that a go. Do exactly what Eric said there. And then uh there's a link in the show notes, send us a message and let us know what you find, because I'd be very interested. Um, to and also let us know what you did as well. That would help. Whether whether you went into the cloud or what what sort of medium you then copied it onto, because I'd be very interested to know.

Eric Mitchell: 15:48

But to what you were saying, like that's really my angle, is like so much in the world uh we can't know. Like, we don't know if there's aliens or not, you know, just like a really thing. Like, but like we we can't know. Like with audio, it's it's a science, and we have tools that we don't have to wonder. Like, we don't sit there and go, is are these things what we you you have a means to to tell yourself for sure what you're hearing. And I wouldn't say to to again answer what you said earlier, like I don't think of null testing as like um I don't think of it as like a tool in the same way as I do like a compressor or or it not like that. It's not like a it's not like a something I use every day, it's more like an instrument which can provide me information in scenarios where I want to verify what I think I'm hearing.

Marc Matthews: 16:45

Yeah. How often in your sort of day-to-day workflow do you find yourself using a novel test? Is it something you do often?

Eric Mitchell: 16:54

Not often, not often at all. Like a handful of times a year. Um earlier on, I will so that's now in like my context today. Earlier on in my career, I was using it more just because um uh I was curious and wanted to inform myself about certain things, like what's the difference between this and that? And actually, another tool to shout out um in conjunction with null testing, which I thought was really informative, is that plug-in um uh plug-in doctor. Uh because you can stick that in your DA and it will show you similarly to how null testing shows you things, it'll show you like what processing is occurring so you can actually see it. And so again, like I I'm definitely not advising like to become a visual mixer, like use testing plugins and mix based on spectrums and null testing and stuff. It's more just like uh the you know, knowledge is power, like uh G.I. Joe knowing's half the battle. Knowing these things uh just arms you for scenarios where you can reach into your bag and say, Oh man, like I really wish I could figure out XYZ. Oh, I can use a null test right now to do that. And do you reach into your bag of tools, and that's you know what I mean, when you'd use it. Um most of the time, uh lately, it's in the context of um how do I word this uh trying to disprove internet madness.

Marc Matthews: 18:25

Have you got an example of one that you've done recently? Like uh dis disproving.

Eric Mitchell: 18:30

Dude, like that's actually what motivated me to um to mention it to you about the talking is because in particular last year there were three very high-profile engineers just on on something else on the interwebs uh stance of things. And so the three things were I'm not gonna name any names, I don't want to be that guy, but there was uh huge engineer saying that changing the meters and pro tools changes the sound, like changing the little LED meter type.

Marc Matthews: 19:02

I saw I I have I have seen that. Um I can't I I cannot remember who it was, but I have seen that conversation. Yeah, carry on.

Eric Mitchell: 19:09

Yep, so that was one. Then there was another one who was this was on a mix with the masters feature, which they eventually pulled because of this. He was saying that all DAWs have a different sound, and so plugins sound different in every DAW. And um, then the other one was um that uh a power conditioner changes the sound of an ITB mix in in your computer. And you know that in theory, then if I bounce a mix from Logic on my desktop and then go bounce the same project from my laptop because it has different power, the mix is gonna sound different.

Marc Matthews: 19:50

Wow. Um they uh yeah, I've I've heard of all those uh those ones, particularly the first two, definitely. Uh the the the metering one is. Is a is an odd one. Um I've definitely heard the the whole DAW one, but the power conditioner, that's it it's almost I mean, I I'm not an expert with regards to these things, but it kind of like it's almost like someone's saying something just to say something or to create a conversation where there's no actual substance to it. But what did you do?

Eric Mitchell: 20:21

Can you give us an example of your of your response to uh yeah, so in in all of them, I essentially like commented and and mentioned null testing, like you know, because the comments are obviously full of excuse me, back and forth with that's not true. This isn't well, yes it is, I heard it. And you know, even like the power conditioner one, it becomes interesting because you know I'm I'm fortunate to have the informed perspective of like someone who does this for a living, but there are so many people who are interacting with these, you know, big engineers who are aspiring or don't have that experience, and so like they are looking to these people to learn and for advice, you know, and so like uh I actually kind of that's like a hot button for me when you have like you know somebody who's should be credible, who's on the internet giving people wacky advice. Like, that's not helping anybody, and so it's like why you gotta do that, you know? And so hence the null test, it's like trying to inform these people like, look, guys, we don't we don't have to wonder if a power conditioner affects your the way your mix sounds. We can test this. Like, here we go. Uh I'm gonna bounce this mix on my uh desktop off wall power, which is an Intel CPU, and then I'm gonna bounce the same amounts bounce off my laptop on battery power on an Apple CPU. So now we have two different CPUs, two different powers. We're gonna bounce the mix. Let's see if they null. Of course they null. So it's like there's zero difference between those bounces. We don't have to wonder, power does not affect your thing. But the crazy thing is now on this in this particular instance, this engineer that was peddling this took offense because he his in his mind, I'm assuming he felt uh larger as an engineer than myself, or like his success or whatever. There was some ego. And uh his response to me was like, uh, I don't need a null test, check the credits. Like it was like a cut like that. It's like, really, bro? Really? Like, so what so what? Because you have credits, you're inhuman. Yeah. Like these things don't result because of skill or experience. It's a it's a the human condition. Like we are all human, and you your brain is what it is. Like you can't control your your brain to the degree that you can, you know, validate scientific audio measurements. Like, that's why we have these tools. And so I just sit there and I think about what about all these people who come into this thread that are aspiring. Like, you know, imagine myself 15 years ago when I was just learning, and I'm and I see this big engineer say, Oh, power affects the bounce. Like, if I didn't know well enough or how to just determine that for myself and I took that at face value, now I'm gonna be all concerned, which computer should I bounce this mix on? You know, like it it just creates problems for people. So all I'm trying to uh motivate is just educating people in this era of like the internet information. Like, you don't have to wonder. Null null testing is only one tool amongst many, but we have tools that we can use to cipher through the abundance of crap that people think right now on the internet.

Marc Matthews: 23:45

Yeah, that's uh what you mentioned there is a prime example of what we were talking about earlier, which is having a tool in your arsenal that you can think, okay, this sounds dodgy. I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. I'm gonna test this out for myself, regardless of who it is as well. I love the fact that he was uh he or she was flexing by their credits rather than actually coming back with a with a response.

Eric Mitchell: 24:07

I couldn't believe that. That's just like, man, like I mean, it's each their own, but I don't care if I was the biggest engineer in the world, like humility goes a long way.

Marc Matthews: 24:15

Well, 100%, yeah, yeah. 100%. And I think everybody's always people are always learning as well. So every it's always a learning opportunity, no matter how like what what stage you're at, um, people make mistakes, but yeah, I love that. Check the credits, so good.

Eric Mitchell: 24:29

Check the credits, Louise. Yeah, okay.

Marc Matthews: 24:32

I mean, did you did you check check the credits? Did you just immediately move on?

Eric Mitchell: 24:36

I mean, I I didn't need to, I knew who he was. Okay, okay. That that's the point he was getting at, but like uh it's like, dude, I don't care if you're the best mastering engineer on the entire planet, you are still human and you're still not infallible. Like you're it's you know, I mean, like I I actually think not acknowledging that is a weakness. Like, we need to acknowledge that we are human and that we can't always trust our eyes or our ears or whatever, you know. Like it's that's why these tools are like insurance to verify what we think if we're unsure.

Marc Matthews: 25:09

Yeah. So just to play devil's advocate, then you've you you've never gone against the data, like I say data in terms of what you're what you're hearing.

Eric Mitchell: 25:40

Um well, so yes and no, like uh with null testing, the data that it provides is more of like um indicative of like difference or similarities. It's less informative in like a mixed or mastered uh decision context. But like I've gone against it in ways where like it it uh contradicted what I thought and caused me to change my beliefs, like thinking you know, this converter is better than that one, and then doing the null test and hearing differences that actually pointed to the other one having some advantages or stuff like that. And um, so I I would say, yeah, it I wouldn't say that I've gone against the results, I would say that the results have caused me to go against what I believed prior, like reinforms my position or opinion or belief on something.

Marc Matthews: 26:35

Yeah, I get you. Yeah, so you're not going against what you're necessarily hearing, it's just helping you make an informed decision, basically. Ultimately, yeah, make an informed decision. Yeah, um, Eric, I realize we're we're fast approaching the end of our conversation here. It's been very interesting. Very interesting. So I think for like best practices, and I appreciate we've gone through some tips already with regards to individuals wanting to get started with null testing and why they should do it. Um, mainly uh, as we mentioned earlier about the internet narrative, it's certainly one to help with that. And uh you mentioned about uh most DAWs having some form of utility plugin where you can flip the phase, and there are an abundance of plugins where you can flip the phase anyway, but like a utility plugin to flip the phase. Have you got any tips for beginners who uh want to try null testing without getting lost? Let's say they're right at the beginning of their journey. Are there any other tips that you can think of?

Eric Mitchell: 27:25

Not really. I guess it's more just like the best practices we covered. Maybe if we do did like a summary of like, you know, checkpoints of main things to cover, is it uh number one, it has to be two of the same source signal, it's like the same audio. Two, it has to be correctly sample aligned in the DA. Three, you have to flip the phase on only one of them. Um, and again, that's to rem to remind the listeners because we're reversing the shape of the waveform so that one pull subtracts from the other. Um and then uh three, it it will most often never null. It usually won't null. There'll usually be small differences, um, and that's what it shows you. So you should not ex you should not go into it with the expectation that things will null. It's actually rare. And then lastly, um, this is for the analog guys, this makes it a lot more difficult, is that it's a lot harder to null check or null test analog bounces because there are uh natural inconsistencies in our analog processing. Like if you do a digital bounce in the box twice in a row, it's identical both times. But if you print a bounce through a desk twice in a row, there are going to be subtle differences just to the hardware. And so in those cases, null testing, it won't it won't ever null because of those, you know, differences in the analog print. So sometimes the environment of the test itself is will constrain the results. And so like you need to be aware of that. That if you were trying to null two analogs, you'll it will never null. And you're you have to know that in a different in addition to any of the differences you're hearing between the two bounces, you're also gonna hear the uh non-linearities of the analog itself in that. Um, but I feel like these days most people who are doing this kind of stuff and that per purposely use a digital bounce for the testing.

Marc Matthews: 29:35

Yeah, that I that I was kind of gonna uh mention that then. Is it's kind of one of those things that seems to be more likely to be in the digital realm versus versus solely in the in the in the analog realm. But it'd be quite interesting to do though, I think. Quite interesting to do in the analog realm if you've got that opportunity to experiment with it. Um there was one other question I had actually uh with regards to those three examples, was the Pro Tools metering? Um, I totally forgot about it. What was the argument there? I can't because it's been so long since I've seen that argument. What was the argument with regards to the metering?

Eric Mitchell: 30:06

He was saying that you like so in Pro Tools, you can you know how you can change the scaling of the metering, like K14 or whatever. Um, he was saying that changing that setting changed how the DOS sounded. And so at first, uh I have a friend that worked for Avid for like 15 years, so of course I hit him up. Um I was like, yo, check this. I sent him a link to the thing. I'm like, look at what this dude's saying. I'm like, off the bat, I'm like, he's crazy, but I need some verification. He and he was like, Oh yeah, he's crazy. Like the audio doesn't even touch the meters, it's it's visual. Um, it it doesn't even go through and so I was like, cool. And so I like go to the thread, I write that, like just talk to my friend who worked average for 15 years, and you know, oh, I heard it. I I don't care what he said, I heard it. And so this is like that prime example, right? It's like, all right, dude, like I you're you're who you are and you've got a great career, but like you're still human, like you're hearing something that's not there. You should want to, you know, validate that, null test it. And so I Steven Slade actually came into the thread and was like, I just did a null test. This is this bullshit. Like, then a bunch of other people were like, I null tested, I null tested it, nulls, it nulls, it nulls, but this guy was like ready to die on that hill. He's still just like, I don't care what you all say, I could hear it. And it's like, dude, you are a professional audio engineer, like you're you're arguing against a null test. Like that's like that's like arguing against that the earth is is flat. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean but I mean, yeah, yeah.

Marc Matthews: 31:40

It it just yeah, it's it sounds like you got to the point where but the point of no return is like I've committed to this now. I can't go back. I've committed to it, I've gone too far. Like I've uh yeah, gone too far, and I can't like I cannot go back on what I've said. I've just got to continue down this path and just hope that at some point people forget. Uh interesting one, man.

Eric Mitchell: 31:59

2026, the year audio engineering became comedy.

Marc Matthews: 32:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of that. There is a lot of that too. I see a lot of that on YouTube, to be honest with you. A lot of it is uh interesting stuff. Um, listeners, before we wrap things up, uh we I mentioned this earlier, I gave you a call to action, which was to uh try moving a digital file between different mediums and null testing it and see what you come up with. But um, are you gonna add this to your workflow again? Click that link in the episode show notes and let us know what you do with regards to that. I'd be very interested and I'll give you a shout-out on a future episode. But Eric, it's been uh very insightful. I've really enjoyed this chat, first one of 2026. And um in particular, the three examples I think were brilliant that you came with uh with regards to why we would use null testing as well. So uh before we wrap things up, is there anything you'd like to share with our audience? Have you got anything coming up? Any interesting stuff? And where can they find you if they want to follow you and learn more about what you're doing?

Eric Mitchell: 32:58

Um, you can links to everything is on my website, it's ericmitchelaudio.com. Um, biggest thing I'd like to plug that I'm proud of is um I last year brought a hardware uh analyzer to market, like a desktop real-time analyzer called the Arbiter. And the company is Captive Audio with a K. So captiveaudio.com. Um got it on holiday sale right now, 50 bucks off. Very cheap, um, very useful, helpful. Actually, on the topic of uh null testing and tools. It's a great tool that I use every day in my workflow.

Marc Matthews: 33:32

Cool, man. I will put a link to that in the in the show notes and also a link to your website as well. So, audience, do go check, go check all that out as well. Please do go and check that. And also, if you've enjoyed this episode, do go check out episodes 174, the Art of DIY Mastering, and 182, Are You Using Digital Distortion ROM, both including Eric in those in those episodes. So do go check those out. And of course, as well, I always give this CTA, this call to action. Do click the show notes and uh jump on my weekly newsletter as well, so you get kept up to date with everything, podcasting and tips and tricks on music production and whatnot. And obviously, you'll see bits and pieces from this episode in a few weeks' time. But er, Eric, it's been an uh a few weeks' time, the same week. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's uh always good to catch up. Our yearly chats. Um, yeah, I'll be interested to know what the next one will be. So if you do come across anything else uh that you see out in the wild on the internet that you want to uh chat about and um ultimately uh disprove in some way on the podcast, more than up for it. It's always interesting, mate. Uh so big keep a mental ticker going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just make a note and then at the end of the year be like, okay, but I've got these ideas, I've seen this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, because they're always really good ones to go through because I can imagine there's always good there's going to be other people out there who've seen the same similar things and uh always something, yeah, yeah, 100%. So, audience, so next time, trust your ears, commit with confidence, and keep mixing, and join me in the next episode.