#223: How A New York Intern Became A Grammy-Winning Mastering Engineer (Sound Discussion Podcast)

What does it really take to go from invisible intern to trusted, Grammy-winning mastering engineer? The Sound Discussion Podcast sit down with Dan Millice to unpack the habits, choices, and honest work that shaped his journey, from cleaning bathrooms and taking cheques to the bank at MasterDisc, to building a client list one late-night venue at a time, to mastering records for artists across genres and continents.

Dan explains why he chose to specialise in mastering and why he ultimately moved fully in the box. The answer isn’t dogma, it’s service. Faster recalls, instant fixes, and reliable delivery matter when a label needs a longer fade today or a track order change by this afternoon. He breaks down his no-template approach, starting albums from a blank session, picking a reference track, and selecting EQs, de-essers, and limiters for each song’s needs. We compare popular limiters, FabFilter Pro L2, Ozone Maximizer, and talk about why default settings rarely cut it, how genre changes limiter behaviour, and when subtlety beats shine.

You’ll also hear how Dan handles mixes that aren’t ready. He shares the quick QC process, the value of a phone call to align on vision, and the ethics of pushing back so the final record wins. Beyond tools and taste, the throughline is human: relationships, trust, and responsiveness. Recognition and nominations follow the reps, wet Tuesday nights at shows, genuine conversations, and consistent delivery. For artists and engineers, this conversation is a roadmap: specialise with intent, keep learning, meet people in the real world, and above all, serve the song.

Links mentioned in this episode:

Listen to the Sound Discussion Podcast

Follow the Sound Discussion Podcast

Follow Dan Millice

Listen to episode 197 (Nate Kelmes)

Chapters

• 0:00 Festive Series Kickoff
• 1:30 Introducing Sound Discussion And Dan Millis
• 3:50 From Charlotte To Mastering Engineer
• 8:04 Interning At MasterDisc
• 12:10 Hustle, Networking, And First Clients
• 16:40 Early Practice: Matching Finished Masters
• 19:55 Specialise Or Spread Thin
• 23:54 Going Fully In The Box
• 27:43 Pandemic Pivot And Client Service
• 31:59 No Templates, Album Flow, And Tools
• 37:17 Limiters Shootout And Genre Fit
• 42:05 Serve The Song Philosophy
• 46:04 When To Push Back On Mixes
• 50:17 Personal Touch And Client Care
• 54:07 Diverse Genres And Industry Circles
• 57:18 Grammys, Recognition, And Persistence
• 1:01:33 Keep Doing The Reps
• 1:05:15 Desert Island Plugins And DAWs
• 1:08:11 First Band Stories And Closing

Transcript

Marc Matthews: 0:29

You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews. Welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to podcast for music creation and production. Whether you're crafting your first track or refining your mixing skills, join me each week for expert interviews, practical tutorials, and insights to help you level up your music and smash it in the music industry. Let's dive in. Hello folks and welcome to a festive edition of Inside the Mix. A big welcome to any new listeners and viewers, and of course, a big welcome back to the returning listeners and viewers. Now, this episode kicks off a festive series of podcast episodes where I'm sharing with you folks some of my favourite podcasts. And each of these podcasts has had a representative appear on Inside the Mix. And we are kicking off the series with the Sound Discussion Podcast. Now, Nate Kelms from the Sound Discussion Podcast featured on Inside the Mix episode 197. Why I don't touch plugins before doing this, The Art of Static Mixing. So go and check that episode out once you've listened to this one. The Sound Discussion episode I'm sharing with you is titled From Intern to Grammy Winner. Dan Millis shares his mastering journey. So in this episode, the guys at uh Sound Discussion Podcast welcome Dan Millis. He's a mastering engineer who has made waves in the music industry with his meticulous approach and impressive portfolio. So he's he's based in New York City and he's worked with artists such as ASAP Rocky, Dolly Parton, Julian Large, and he's earned a Grammy as well. So he earned a Grammy in 2023. So in this episode, Dan discusses the importance of serving the song and the unique challenges that come with mastering different genres of music. And they also touch on insights into his workflow. And Dan emphasizes the significance of personal connections in the industry and how networking has played a vital, vital role in his success. So again, this is from intern to Grammy winner Dan Millis shares his mastering journey. Now, before we dive into this episode, folks, I still want your input on what you want to see and hear from Inside the Mix in 2026. So please do click that link in the episode description. Give me some feedback on what you want to see and hear, maybe what you want to see less of in 2026, and also share your win as well and get featured on episode 227. So without further ado, Sound Discussion podcast from intern to Grammy winner Dan Millis shares his mastering journey.

Ben Holmes: 2:56

Hi, and welcome to Sound Discussion. Each episode we discuss a music topic which we have all had first hand experience with. These will be anything from getting started, recording, playing live, mixing, mastering, and everything in between. Most episodes we will have a special guest to bring their professional experience to the discussion. So, let's get started.

Nate Kelmes: 3:22

This month, our guest is an award-winning, highly sought-after mastering engineer based in New York City, known for his meticulous attention to detail and his guiding principle, Serve the Song. He earned a Grammy in 2023 for his work on New Standards Volume 1 by Terry Lynn Carrington, which won Best Jazz Instrumental Album. In addition to this win, he has been nominated 15 times and counting. His portfolio boasts work with ASAP Rocky, Dolly Parton, Julian Laj, The Blind Boys of Alabama, Bella Fleck, and so many more, I can't even list them. So go to his website to check out the full discography. Beyond Mastering, he offers one-on-one mix advice and critiques, ensuring artists achieve the best possible mix before mastering. His dedication to quality and collaboration is at the heart of everything he does, which brings us right back to where we started. Serve the song. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to Sound Discussion our guest this month, Dan Millis.

Neil Merchant: 4:30

Woo-hoo!

Nate Kelmes: 4:33

Whoa, that was awesome. Thank you. No, thank you, man. Thanks, man. It it's been a long time that I've wanted to have you on, and the time is now. So here we are.

Ben Holmes: 4:45

Yeah, really excited to talk about it. It's gonna be good. Yeah, this is gonna be really good. And before we go any further, I mean the ASAP Rocky Dolly Parton mashup is something that's top of my list. You should get them together, Dick.

Nate Kelmes: 4:58

Yeah. You should totally send them a note. It's like the degrees of separation, Kevin Bacon thing.

Neil Merchant: 5:05

Is that six degrees or seven degrees or whatever?

Dan Millice: 5:07

It's one. Just one. Just one degree. I will connect them.

Nate Kelmes: 5:14

So, Dan, if you wouldn't mind, um, for people who don't know who you are, which I'm sure a lot of people don't know who you are, um most mastering engineers fly under the radar for for most music lovers, even even you know, studio professionals. Um I'll start by saying this before I have you launch into who you are. Uh when I was putting together the intro that I read, I was looking through all of your records that you mastered, which is stupid impressive. Um just the amount of records you mastered in 2023 alone. I was scrolling for five straight minutes. Thank you. Like it was ridiculous. Anyway, one of my absolute top ten records, and that is a that that is a a hard list to make onto. I did not know you mastered. And when I saw that, I was like, oh shit. My buddy Dan mastered that record? Which one? Julian Laj, Arclight. Oh my gosh. That record changed my life. And if anyone is interested, if if you're at all curious about who Julian Laj is, just Google him. But check out Arc Light, and specifically, my favorite song is the very last track on that record. Go and listen to it. But oh man, dude, I'm so happy. When I saw that you you mastered that, I was like, that makes complete sense, and it is now like my number one record. So there you go. Oh man.

Dan Millice: 6:41

Uh it's it's it's probably in my top ten as well as a fan. Um Julian is just ungodly talented, hardworking, sweet, like the nicest person you'll ever meet. That's so awesome. Yeah, so it's and and and he's everywhere now, you know, and totally well deserved. Um huge, huge Julian Losh fan as well.

Nate Kelmes: 7:12

That's awesome. Yeah. Well, I'd love to hear about how how you get connected with artists like Julian Losh. But go ahead and and tell everyone a little bit about who you are, how you got started, and uh just sort of bring us up the speed. For sure, yeah.

Dan Millice: 7:28

And thanks again for for having me on. Um, I'm I'm like obsessed with the Jake Fader episode. I've listened to it multiple times. He's I'm biased because he's the uh Lee Turner as well. Um Ian's episode was really good. So thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you guys having me. Um but yeah, I uh I'm from Charlotte, North Carolina originally, and just at an at a young age, um, you know, just was really into music and buying CD or you know, my dad taking me to buy a new band, new CD, you know, cutting open the shrink wrap, getting little pieces of tape stuck everywhere because it's never like a clean cut, you know. No. And uh and rifling through the artwork and reading the notes and not knowing any of the names, except maybe like the band members, and uh, you know, seeing like Sears Sound or Electric Ladies Studios or Olympic or you know, anywhere, you know, Abbey Road, all these names, and just kind of not not you know not overanalyzing it or anything, but just kind of taking note at a at an early age and um trying my hand at being in a band and um making our own CD, you know, like that my first experience doing that was in high school. Um and getting to the point where I was like making my own recordings, recording for my friends, okay, and um just kind of like learning as you go and uh working with buddies on stuff and just being like, oh man, I love this. This is I'm obsessed, you know, and uh got to the point where it was like, okay, you need to go to college, you know. And so I looked at a few colleges, and there's this great university in North Carolina called Appalachian State University, and they have a music industries program. Sounded like, you know, the coolest thing. Um and it's and it's different from like a trade school program. You know, it's it's an actual bachelor's degree, you know, it's like a four-year degree. You have to take English, you have to take math, you know, science, PE. I had to take PE. Um, it's real college, you know, it's like a real college football team. I went to a real college, damn it. Right. Like I went, yeah, exactly. And um, but they have a great music school. Wow. It's called the Hayes School of Music. And so I did I auditioned for that. I'm sure that I was kind of rubbish, if if I'm being totally honest about it. Like I I sang uh I sang like an Italian opera uh to audition. Really? Yes. I I didn't know you I didn't know you sang. I don't uh that's the funny part. But yeah, no, I wasn't good enough on guitar. At least in my mind, maybe I could have prepared a piece, but I knew that there would be a sight reading. Anyways, this is probably way more than you guys bargain for here, but no, it's all right. Um yeah, auditioned for the music school, got in as a vocal uh instrument. You had to claim an instrument, so I was like, okay, well, let's do voice. I'll sing, I'll sing bass and I'll stand in the back. And if that'll get me in the recording studio, then so be it. Oh, you have to have a tuxedo? All right, cool. We'll go buy a tuxedo so I can sing in the in the performances or whatever. And uh, you know, so I just like jumped through the hoops that I had to do to get into the recording studio at App and uh and yeah, just fully immerse myself in the program, like was in every club possible, was was like the president of a call, you know. I I was very involved, and I just like got I really got um every penny's worth of my experience there, and you know, it they start you from the beginning, and it's like music theory and uh you know basics of audio and transducers and blah blah blah. You know, they start you from the beginning and then they you know they build you up and eventually you can record a full band and mix their mix their record, a little bit of mastering, not a ton. Um but you you know, you you leave the program with a bachelor's degree, which is essentially what my parents, I think, wanted me to, you know, traditional college degree and this, you know, foundation and um etiquette and stuff, you know, like my professor Scott Wynne, who is still still there, and he he's um one of my greatest influences. Um he you know, he he gives you he tells you what not to do, you know, like um so you you le you know he he he tells you what what is what is good and also what is not good to do, you know, in a in a studio. And so you you enter with like uh a nice foundation and um the last part of the program is you have to get an internship. It's not uh it's not uh you know it's it's mandatory, it's the final semester of your four-year is you know, eighth, eighth semester, whatever it is. I think it was my ninth, but um you go get an internship, and it can't be in town, it can't be like down the street at your butt, you know, it's gotta be a real internship, and it's still technically college, so you know, I with the help of my parents, I moved to New York. I did not have an internship lined up. I just knew like I just knew that like it once I got there I would be able to maybe find one. And like if I didn't, I'd come back, you know, a failure. But um give it the old college try. Right? So um, and I didn't know if I was gonna end up in New York forever or not. I just knew that that was where I was gonna do my internship, and so I got to New York and I I lived at the 92nd Street Y. Um, that was my first place that I lived in New York, and people New Yorkers think that's like totally crazy. But it's just a dorm that you can live in for the summer when you're on an internship. I mean um it was awesome. Uh so anyways, fast forward, a lot of the studios I applied to uh just had never heard of Appalachian State University. They were like, what's the place called? And um it, you know, it's small. It's like in the mountains of North Carolina.

Nate Kelmes: 15:18

It's small, it's not you know, we're doing it doesn't have a name behind it, it doesn't have any cred.

Dan Millice: 15:26

Yeah, unless you're like a hardcore college football fan and know about that one upset that they had over the big school, you know, like you've never heard of Appalachian State for the most part. So, anyways, um I tried not to take that too personal personally, but um I I applied to a bunch of studios, I got I could name them, and the the ones the one that I got that I was really, really interested in was at MasterDisc. And um they were a you know traditional mastering house and one of one of probably the last of their kind, um, with the exception of the handful that are still around today. So um jumped at that. I do I dove into that full on. Um, and that you know, that was traditional intern process, like clean the bathrooms every day and get the coffees, you know, get the coffees. I mean, take the checks to the bank because this was you know, before you could just scan it, scan it in. Right.

Ben Holmes: 16:38

Um all the stuff you're running through as a mastering engineer.

Dan Millice: 16:41

Yeah, yeah, like operational interning. You know, this was not you're not in the studio, you're not, you know, you are as far and and that that aligned with what I was told by my professor in college was like, hey, you know, go in there and be invisible. Like yeah, be be there when they need you and be not there when they don't need you, and um, don't say anything stupid or anything at all, you know, when in doubt, just be quiet, you know. Yeah, that's it.

Nate Kelmes: 17:13

You don't have an opinion, no one asked you for one.

Dan Millice: 17:16

Yes, and it was great uh place to get, you know, kind of a a start. And um eventually once you, you know, once you kind of get get through that uh for a few months. I mean, there was no position. That's another thing I tell people is like there was no position uh open after that. And that they they didn't pro you know they didn't advertise one, you know, it was just an internship for college credit. There was no like, yeah, and if you get through this, like then you go to this level, and then we train you and you get this, you know. It just that's so there was there was no job at the end of it. There was no job. Yeah, there was no job. But um, anyways, I just I told them like I really wanted to stay. Now I wasn't I wasn't there super long. Um, but I did end up uh being a production assistant for one of the mastering engineers, and that you know involved setting up session, tearing down the session, doing the doing the production work, assembling the albums, taking ticks and pops and little mouth sounds that aren't there for musical reasons out. Right. Um fade outs, sometimes spacing between songs, if if uh but that was like that, you know, that was it. Like it wasn't a creative, you know, sexy job or anything, but it was totally totally and that also allowed for the other for for the engineer to be in his studio mastering another out album during that time, so it's really efficient. I I really got to see um how it works and how a a mastering house operates, you know. And um then they were like, okay, you can use the room in off hours. And you learn quickly, like you're not gonna, no one's gonna give you work, you know, they're not gonna be like, oh, and here's your first client. Master this album. It's seven songs. The band is from Chicago, and but like that's not that's not how it works. So I learned immediately you have to go out and get your own clients, and so I was like, oh, how do I get clients? I have no credits, right? You know, like uh still kind of like blows my mind, honestly, talking about it or thinking about it um right now. But I would just go to Arlene's grocery, I would go to pianos, I would go to Rockwood, I would go to Mercury Lounge, I would, you know, I would just go out, you know, to shows I didn't even really want to go to necessarily, just to do networking and and say, like, hey, you know, or find bands that I thought were cool. I mean, I also I didn't know anyone in New York. I mean, I I maybe knew like a couple of classmates that were also in New York at the same time, but they were doing like different stuff. It wasn't related at all. So um I didn't know anybody, you know, so I just like needed to go out, meet people, I I guess you could say. And um, so yeah, I just like went to shows, would find bands that I thought were cool. Say, you know, tell them, hey, I'm I'm an assistant engineer at Master Disc. I'd love to show you the place, you know. I uh or I know you just I know you just put out your album, you're not looking for mastering right now. You know, that's that's the reality, is like, yeah, um, it hard it's it it's sticky, you know, it's sticky out there.

Nate Kelmes: 21:21

It's not just I could see that approach working really well for a mix engineer, but for a mastering engineer, that's a little bit more difficult.

Neil Merchant: 21:28

Maybe even maybe not even a mix engineer, maybe a recording engineer.

Nate Kelmes: 21:31

A recording engineer, yeah, exactly. Totally.

Dan Millice: 21:34

Yeah. Um I didn't know.

Ben Holmes: 21:37

It's definitely the bit that people don't think about is uh if you want to be if you want to do this as a job, uh you are you are a salesman and you are a mastering engineer or a recording engineer.

Nate Kelmes: 21:49

Yeah, you're the sales team, you're the marketing team, you are everything, yeah, you're the janitor, you're everything. You're the accountant, you're basically doing the scheduler, you're a janitor.

Neil Merchant: 21:59

You're basically doing door-to-door sales there when you're going from band to band.

Dan Millice: 22:03

Absolutely. Especially starting out, you know. And when I talk to like I I'm still very close with Appalachian State, so I talk to their uh program pro like annually. That's great. I tell that's one of the first things I tell them. And it does I do see that look in their eyes sometimes. That's like fear of the unknown, you know.

Neil Merchant: 22:29

Who's this guy?

Dan Millice: 22:30

They know it's gonna be hard just to be good at this trade that you want to learn. Like that's hard, you know, being really good at recording or mixing, it's not easy. But also having like the social skill to go out and hang. You know, I I somebody called it like the art of the hang or something. I don't know.

Nate Kelmes: 22:56

Yeah, um, no, I've heard that before too.

Ben Holmes: 22:58

Lee talked about it, didn't he? About being on tour. The people you want to be on tour with are the people who are easy to hang with. You can be a better guitarist or a better bass player, but you'd prefer to be on tour with the person who's an easy hang.

Dan Millice: 23:13

100%. Yeah, you yeah, you don't do yourself any favors by um being a jerk, you know. Um, so yeah, I would just and and no one taught me that, no one really showed me a roadmap necessarily of how to do it, but I was just like, what's the best way to get bands in here? I guess I need to go meet some bands, at least start there. Actually, there there was this one client, um, this was really early, and I got I did get this record actually, but I I was like a fan of this band, and um I I saw on Twitter that they had posted, just finish mixing the album, and I was like, Oh my god, they have a new album coming out. And I DM'd the label and was just like, Hey, my name's Dan. I I'm in New York, I work at Master Disc. They did Zeppelin 4. You know, I'm like name-dropping records that were done in like the 80s. You got to, you got to I'm like Bruce Springsteen Born to Run, like selling yourself, you know, born in the USA. Uh so and she's like, You didn't work on any of those records, so why are you even talking about that? She was she was like really That's kind of brutal. Yeah, it was brutal, and I was like, You're right, why am I talking about that? Um, but I didn't know better, you know. I was green as hell, you know. I was like the greenest guy in New York City, just like bright-eyed and trying to learn everything I could and meet people and you know be myself in the process. And um, but yeah, you just kind of stumble through it. And I, you know, I started to bring all my first records were just friends from college. It was just like bands from App State that um were huge in Boone, North Carolina, but like, you know, not household names or anything like that, respectfully. Um, because I love all those, all those people. But um, but yeah, like that's how I started. And um so when you're like the assistant engineer at a studio like that, you you know, it's a you know, it's like a position that doesn't even exist. You're just like after hours. One of the first things they gave me was um, and this was really valuable, and I I I will do this in the future as well if I ever have like an assistant or something. It's just great practice. Um they would give me like a few masters that were done in the room that I was assisting in, and the pre-master, the mix, you know, which you don't have access to that unless you know you run a mastering facility or something like, you know, maybe a mixing facility. But that's not just like something you can just do. What you know, you need to have the the pre-master um and the reference, you know, and the final master. And so what that allowed me to do was, and and they didn't give me the EQ sheets either. So it was like, here's the desk, here's the final product, here's the mix, try to match the master that we gave them. Wow.

Nate Kelmes: 26:37

Okay, so it's just the here's a before and after, so you can kind of hear the difference. It's match beat. The do matter.

Dan Millice: 26:45

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, match or beat. Although I wasn't really like trying to overshoot the mark either because this was you know full on loudness wars were full on bloodbath going on during this period. So so you didn't want to be the guy overshooting either, and like the things imploding, and you're the too loud guy. That was like you didn't want to be that guy. So I I wasn't really looking to necessarily beat it, uh at least on the meters, but definitely was trying to get as close as possible. And that also helped me learn the gear. You know, it's like it it it it kills like five different birds with the same stone. It's like, you know, you're you're training your ears, you're learning the gear, you're you know, you're doing the thing from start to finish. You're they had deadline, you know, they're like by by Monday, you know, these three. And they're totally different songs, different genres. And I don't know, it I was it was intimidating at the time, but like, what a cool, what a cool little homework assignment. Yeah, it sounds amazing. Yeah, and hard to replicate. But you know, nowadays it's like well, I'm never gonna get the I'm never gonna get the Dua Lipa mix unmastered version, but I can listen to the master a billion times on on Apple, you know, and reference it best I can. But I'm not you know, I'm never gonna master that exact song in that key, mixed, you know, here's the pre-mix version 2.3, you know, or whatever it is. Uh it's hard to replicate that. So, anyways, I just um that was really cool and that that got me going and just mastering my friends' records. And um I've just been doing that, you know, ever since. I just uh I never never stopped. I never stopped. Um I did I did mix some stuff during that period in the early days of New York because I was I was just like, what am I gonna say no? You know, yeah, sure. Um but I did get to a point, I think it's worth mentioning here, maybe for for someone listening. I did get to a point where I found it was crucially important to pick one and just stick with it and be that be known for that thing. Yeah, and for me that was mastering. And for some other people, it's mixings, for some other people it's production, for some other people that's just playing guitar solos on other people's songs. Like whatever it is, I think there's a huge benefit to um you know, niching down and being focused on this one thing. Yes, specialization.

Nate Kelmes: 29:51

Um, I know that's not I know that's been mentioned probably on this podcast before, but no, well it I don't I mean I don't know that it has, but it's really, really sage advice and and one that's hard to to take, you know, even for myself. I like to do lots of different things, and it's it's frustrating when I'm not really great at any of them because I want to be great at all of them, but that's really tough to do. And the point is, maybe you know, someone like me needs to niche down. I think nobody's not the only one.

Ben Holmes: 30:26

I think nobody's sort of come out and said it. On the podcast, but when you look at when you look at the people we've had on the podcast, they are all known for a thing. They are not all known for everything. You know, whether it's Ian Shepherd or Exactly, you know, or Warren or you know, whoever it is, Lee, you look at I mean Lee talked about it all the time, you know. Lee is a Lee is a touring musician at at sort of the main thing of what he does, and that's what he does. He goes on, you know, yeah, live musician, yeah. Live musician. And uh yeah, I think almost without any of them saying, Oh, I had to get to a point where I found the thing that I wanted to do and I just did the thing, that's what they've all done. They all just do the thing.

Nate Kelmes: 31:31

Now, with that being said though, somebody like, and we're gonna talk about Lee since he's friends with Dan and myself, and you know, we'll we'll make him embarrassed here while we're chat chatting about him. Uh he's also very good at at being uh uh a producer and a recording engineer and a mixing engineer. So he's dynamite at those things. Um and in fact, when when when we can, we'll have Lee back on to talk about those things um from his perspective. But uh he you know maybe he's somebody who is is an exception to the rule is that he's really great at all of those things.

Neil Merchant: 32:05

Maybe he's found multiple niches or exactly focuses. Like all of us have have recorded, mixed, mastered, uh done live shows, you know. But like Ben, you specialize in playing the drums and mastering. Yeah. Nate, you produce and mix, and I do live music. Once in a while I'll produce, I used to produce. Um but we all kind of found our little like that's true. I do this more often. Um, I'm better at this than I am at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah.

Nate Kelmes: 32:40

Yeah.

Ben Holmes: 32:41

Yeah. I think it also comes down a little bit to the sort of personality you are, because I think um certainly for me, I saw I mixed a few albums for as you know, friends, people and you, that kind of thing. And I realized very quickly I I didn't want to do that. There's too many moving parts, there's too much, there's too many almost decisions you have to make on every oh my gosh, you know, 16, 20 drum tracks. By the time I've done five drum tracks, I'm like, okay, I'm I'm absolutely done with drums now. I don't want to hear another drum even as a drummer. And then you get, you know, oh, I've got nine lead guitar tracks, and I'm like, okay, I'm I I haven't got the I learned very quickly that for me, I just don't have the patience to mix a song. It's just whereas if I've got the map the the two, you know, the stereo mix of that that song, love it. Right now, how can we enhance that, make it better? How can I give it a bit more space, give it a bit more clarity? And I'm in, I don't want to ever have to go back to mixing 64 tracks to get it.

Nate Kelmes: 33:45

It can be daunting, I'll tell you that much. It can be daunting, and and Dan, you're not missing anything, like so uh oh I know, man.

Dan Millice: 33:53

I dude, I I was doing it uh probably, I mean, I was probably still offering mixing up until like 2012. Oh really? Yeah, dude. And I was I would get smoked by like real mixers, you know, and it's like, oh shoot, if I'm gonna do this, I need to commit to this and be like have that dog in me, you know, and like just and be passionate about it. And I felt that about mastering.

Nate Kelmes: 34:26

Um that's awesome that you that you recognize that because a lot of people don't, you know, they they just sort of say, like, uh, well, you know, I'm not great at any of these things, so I'll just I'll quit. You know, I'll go do something else. Sure.

Dan Millice: 34:40

And you know, for me, for me, it's I I love the process. It it's um it's so enjoyable for me, but also when the clients are happy and it's like that's a rap, folks. I I don't know, like have you ever if you've ever worked on like a film or something and they're you know, the last scene, they shoot the last scene, and then they all go to a rap party and like have this huge like celebration. That's maybe kind of the equivalent.

Nate Kelmes: 35:12

Haven't done film, but I did theater in college. So yeah, the last night, the last the last show, yeah, the last show on Sunday, Sunday night or whatever it is.

Dan Millice: 35:23

Absolutely, huge, huge rager, and everyone is super relieved. I mean, that that's probably like the closest equivalent, you know, in the music production. Uh I'm I'm sure like when you wrap a recording, you know, a week of recording and stuff is is a good feeling, uh, you know. Um mixing, I don't know that they have a finish line like that with mixing, because it's like no, I'm I might kick something back or they might realize something is not right and have to, you know, I kind of yeah, I don't know that mixers get get that, but they you know, maybe when they come to the mastering session.

Nate Kelmes: 36:06

Um I just line is the famous line is mixes aren't done, they're abandoned. Right. Right.

Dan Millice: 36:13

Um yeah, so when you finish an album, it's like, and when I first started, I was handing a CD. I was printing a a label, you know, in the machine and putting, you know, folding the thing and putting it in the jewel box and handing it, they were walking out with it. Um now it's way less impersonal, I guess. And I try to make it personal, but it's it's like an email or a text.

Neil Merchant: 36:38

But to you're the last person to touch the the songs. So when you release that, you're right. You're you were just with that song. That's your basic.

Nate Kelmes: 36:50

The next step is duplication, it's in the wild.

Neil Merchant: 36:52

But if you were like the producer or the the the recording engineer at the beginning, and now it's you know, you know, totally out of the loop. Yeah.

Dan Millice: 37:00

Like you're not in the CCs anymore. You're like you, you you got BCC'd somewhere along the line, and it's like, yeah, you're like, oh, the record's done. Awesome. But it's a year later. You cut track seven, it's not now it's tracks, you know, now track seven is track six. You know, like and it's well over a year later. Right, right. I don't know.

Nate Kelmes: 37:22

Everyone's forgotten about it.

Neil Merchant: 37:24

Yeah.

Nate Kelmes: 37:24

Right. Uh so I I'm sure that a lot has changed since those days at MasterDisc when you were starting to to stand up on your own, right? Mostly hardware, I'm sure pretty much all hardware at at MasterDisc. Um, but now what you're you're in the DAW completely, you're in the box?

Dan Millice: 37:45

Yeah, I'm fully in the box right now. Um for multiple reasons, you know. But my biggest reason is um customer focused. You know, it's it's like I need to provide the best service I can provide, and speed is important, and I just it takes too long to jump on the Q train or wait for the Q train, ride it into Manhattan, you know, book the studio time, wait until the owner is out of the room so I can get in the room at five o'clock, you know, or I'm gonna tell my clients, like, I can do that uh once the sun goes down, I got you, you know, and just make a big list of stuff to do when I get in. And it's like, and I did that, you know, I did that for a long time. And um, but yeah, going to fully in the box, um I had actually started to build a vacation rig. I was calling it the vacation rig. Because I just, you know, I moved to New York City in May of 2010. Like, didn't go anywhere except for home at Christmas, you know. That was it. Like, I was chained to the room I was working in, um, which was eventually at the engine room. I was only at the map, I was only at MasterDisc for like a year. But um, anyways, I I couldn't I couldn't work fast enough. And I wanted to be able to go on a vacation and not have this FOMO that like a big name that I was trying to work with maybe was gonna call like the day I was flying out of town, you know, yes, like how it will happen. You know, it's it's it's like leave the umbrella, you know, bring an umbrella and it won't rain, you know, like leave the umbrella home, it's definitely gonna rain. So uh I built like this vacation rig in 2019, and I started like getting that dialed in, and then I went on a vacation, it was cool. But then like six months later, you know what happened. Yeah, and uh New York City was was hit so hard uh by the pandemic, and we were just like you know, we were bound to our apartments. This was like we're we're wiping off our groceries with Clorox wipes and stuff, you know. It was it was like scary, you know. We had to stay inside, and um fortunately I had built my little vacation rig, you know, and it was like HD 600s, an interface, uh an eye lock. It was literally a lifesaver, man.

Nate Kelmes: 40:52

Like in the nick of time.

Dan Millice: 40:54

I couldn't go to the studio, like I legally wasn't allowed in the, you know, the building was closed. So um, and coincidentally the demand went up for mastering. I mean, Ben, I'm sure you had a you know, I'm not unique in that everyone got to stay home and everyone was making recordings in their bedroom is like, well, we still need to get this thing mastered, right? Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, that need didn't dissipate for sure.

Ben Holmes: 41:28

Yeah, and I I think you've I mean one of the things I noticed is that the the volume coming out of artists went up during the pandemic. Oh my gosh.

Nate Kelmes: 41:37

You know, the amount of new music that was happening in those first two years was incredible.

Ben Holmes: 41:41

It was it was hard to keep up. It was amazing how quickly artists figured out they can do it at home if with a bit of knowledge and maybe some help from a someone they trust as an audio engineer and a oh hold on, I can record my guitar, sat in my lounge, and I can I can put some duvets up in a cupboard, and I've got a makeshift vocal booth that will do, and you know what? They they they churned out music.

Neil Merchant: 42:06

Is that about the time that um the AI or uh lander and and ai um mastering programs came out?

Dan Millice: 42:16

That might have started coming out a little before then. But I'm sure they picked up a lot of traction during that time for sure.

Nate Kelmes: 42:26

Definitely now because because ozone mastering was available before then, and and I used that when I was first starting out. Um so that was available before the pair.

Ben Holmes: 42:37

We've had this conversation, Nate. Stop calling it ozone mastering. Ozone's algorithmic addition of some EQ and leveling. Please stop calling it mastering.

Nate Kelmes: 42:48

Hold on, I need to call my mastering engineer.

Ben Holmes: 42:50

Hi, Ozone. Exactly my point. Just tell it what you want. Explain exactly how that's not exactly what you were looking for, and could it make some small tweaks for you? Yeah, see how that goes as a mastering engineer.

Nate Kelmes: 43:01

Absolutely. But you know, two uh uh uh two years into this, Nate did not know the difference. It just sounded better and louder. So I was like, sweet, done.

Dan Millice: 43:12

Yeah, yeah, but ask it how it makes ask it how it how the song makes it feel. That's exactly the point. Did it move did it move you? Um no, but yeah, it you know, that was um that was when I kind of I I mean before that I was a hybrid. I was in the box and out of the box. You know, I I was um I was using the engine room mastering console, and it was an analog chain, um, manly mastering uh transfer desk with a bunch of cool, you know, tube and solid state stuff, and sharing that room with some of my old master disc uh colleagues too, who who came over. Um Andy Vandt in particular, who I I cherish uh knowing, just a great guy. And um yeah, I was working that way, you know, like partially analog, partially in the box. And then when when COVID happened, it was like, you know, you're you're sort of forced to stay in, and I you know, I just needed to stay busy, like mental health, you know, just um trying to navigate the situation and yeah, keeping some normality, stay alive. Like I didn't, you know, this was before we knew what we know now, you know. It was like horrific.

Ben Holmes: 44:45

Yeah.

Dan Millice: 44:46

Um, we were banging on pots and pans at 7 p.m. every day.

Nate Kelmes: 44:50

Like to I remember seeing that on the news.

Dan Millice: 44:53

Yeah. To like thank the um healthcare people. I mean, we we had the same thing here.

Ben Holmes: 44:58

We we just went outside and clapped for that's yeah, man.

Dan Millice: 45:02

For our it's like almost hard to even talk about. Um crazy, yeah. But you know, that's that's what happened, and you know, for what you know, I just I'm thankful that I was in a position that I was in, and I had already done a decade plus work worth of going to Arleans on a Sunday night at 11 p.m. when it's raining, and I really didn't want to go, you know, or going to Rockwood and seeing like six bands, and only one of them really like interested me, maybe to work with, or you know, just that legwork of networking and meeting people and meeting other mix engineers, meeting other music producers, meeting just people doing stuff in the record business, um, that I was able to continue paying my bills and stuff, and um getting, you know, simultaneously really, really good at mastering in the box and like um refining my process there and just um yeah, so and also now I can provide sort of a better service because if somebody has a 911, hey, we just decided to cut track seven and track six needs a longer fade, like no problem. Oh, and we're uploading it today. No problem, save what I'm working on, open that session, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Delete that song, relabel the thing, you know, like boom, okay, it's uploading now. And people are like, what? It's uploading now. Like, thank you so much. You know, that that means a lot to people when you're providing a service for people, they you know, you you wanna blow them away, you know. That's how you get repeat clients, definitely.

Ben Holmes: 47:09

They trust you, right?

Dan Millice: 47:10

Yeah, they trust you, they know you're gonna be there for them, you know.

Nate Kelmes: 47:16

And um but not too available, right? You don't always wanna you don't wanna be waking up at two in the morning and jump into a session unless it pays sufficiently well. I mean, for sure. I don't know.

Dan Millice: 47:27

For sure. Everything like within uh within reason content limits, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I set boundaries, you know. I I have boundaries that I try to set, but um, you know, um for the most part, I'm no I'm sorry.

Neil Merchant: 47:46

Oh, it's okay. I was uh you say that um you you have like a no template approach. Um in this day and age where you're where you're trying to be quick and everything like that. When you say no template, like do you ever use a template with like, okay, so if you're mastering an entire album, right? And you have multiple songs that you kind of want to flow together, do you ever make a template uh for that out like for that particular album? So when you get to the next song to master it, do you or is the no template like specifically for a can you explain the project as a whole?

Nate Kelmes: 48:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm happy. Perfect sense, Neil.

Dan Millice: 48:28

Yeah, no, I totally makes sense. And um basically what I mean by that is I start from scratch, you know. Like I if it's a let's just say it's a 10-song album, um I I do not know what limiter I'm going to use. I do not know what EQs I'm going to use. Um am I going to use a DS or am I not going to use a DS or whatever? I don't know. I start with nothing. You know? I just import all the songs and listen to them. Like I I don't I don't run it through this thing every time, or you know, I don't have any template or you know uh presets or anything like that. I just like a blank canvas. Exactly.

Neil Merchant: 49:21

You're an artist with a blank canvas and you're just ready to paint.

Dan Millice: 49:24

Making this unique thing, you know.

Neil Merchant: 49:26

You don't even know what paints you're gonna use.

Dan Millice: 49:28

You're just one of one. Yeah. Yeah, nice. Exactly. And I just start from scratch, and you know what I usually do, actually I'm I'm infinitely curious about this, what other mastering engineers do, but I usually just pick what I think is the best sounding song. Um, I mean, I I Ben, do you I I'm actually if we could just tangent like what how do you start an album? Like, do you pick the best sounding song or I'm sorry? Um I like that.

Ben Holmes: 49:57

Yeah, so it's a it's a really interesting thing for me because uh I have we've touched on this before and it come I'll it answers your question, I think. So I used to say to clients, do you have sort of reference tracks that are things you're hearing? That sort of and sure. And I've stopped doing it because uh I stopped doing it purely because the bit I like is I get these tracks in, I've chucked them all into my DAW, whatever, or pull them all up, and I just listen to them all, and I get an idea of what I think they were aiming for, not them saying, Oh yeah, I wanted to sound like the red hot chili peppers. And then you listen to it and you go, it doesn't sound anything like the red hot chili peppers. So you just get let down every time. It's just like what was the point of our thing? But what you do is I pull them all up, and I do, I I tend usually they'll send me the play play order of the order they want the album in. Um I then usually listen to each song and find the one I like most, and that's the one I start with. And once I get that to sound how I want, then I work on the rest of the album using that as my starting point. But it's interesting you say you start with a blank canvas because I'm exactly the opposite. And I know that sounds sounds really lazy, but I've I've got probably so I've got on my master chain, I've got uh the tape emulation that I always use because I just think it sounds nice. I've got uh I've got two compressors that I have set up so that what I do is I know that when my signal chain comes through to that point, if it's at the right level, they'll be doing roughly this. So I can immediately get a gauge on how my gain staging's looking before we get into okay, and then I do have a couple of different limiters I use depending on because so controversially, I don't like the Fab Filters L Pro Pro L2 Pro L2, I don't like it. Don't like what it does to the top end, I don't know. Really? I I look I love all their stuff. Their EQ is unbelievably good, but I I don't like the Pro L2. I for some reason controversy. It's not good, man. Controversy indeed. It does something to the top end. I don't know what it does to the top end, but whenever I've picked it up and I've put it on there and I've gone, I don't like it.

Nate Kelmes: 52:18

Well what's what's your favorite limiter, Ben?

Ben Holmes: 52:20

Uh I what do you pick it up?

Neil Merchant: 52:22

I need to go get some popcorn or something.

Ben Holmes: 52:24

Um so so I flip-flop. I do like the ozone limiter. I do think they make a really good limiter. Um and I do like the Tokyo Dawn T E L, what is it? Tokyo T D L.

Nate Kelmes: 52:41

Tokyo Dawn Labs. Yeah. I don't know what their limiter is called yet.

Ben Holmes: 52:44

I think it's really good. I they're they're the two I find myself going for.

Nate Kelmes: 52:48

What about you, Dan? What what's your limiter or limiters of choice?

Dan Millice: 52:52

I love the Pro L2, but I'm not trying to juxtapose you or anything like that. No, no, no.

Ben Holmes: 52:59

I mean, I know I'm in a minority of everyone I talk to.

Dan Millice: 53:02

Yeah, no, no, it's it's um it's just versatile, you know, it's um being able to change the attack and release time and the look ahead and the different engines. Uh I would say that I lean mostly towards the transparent engine. Isn't that what it's called? Transparent engine. Yeah, it is, yeah, yeah. Um but actually I'll tell you a funny thing uh uh about the Pro L2 is um I get sometimes like mixers will include their like a screen. I'm I'm sure they do this with you too, Ben. But like uh you'll get you know the mix and the loud pass, or whatever that might be. That that that could be, you know, a bunch of stuff that could be just a limiter or whatever. But um they'll send you like the screenshot and they're it and it if I get a Pro L2, if the mixer used the Pro L2, they always have it on the default setting, like the the setting that it opens on. That's all you need, isn't it? You just don't you just install the plugin and hit go. Oh my god.

Neil Merchant: 54:12

That's what I do.

Dan Millice: 54:13

That's that is chaos. Yeah. The um that setting is not not where it's at. No. Um maybe maybe it's good if you're just like in a hurry and need to just throw something on quick, but that's just not a situation I'm ever in myself. Um but I I I like being able to dial in that limiter. I I like the ozone limiters. The eight in particular. That's maybe the the ozone maximizer that I would use the most is the eight. I haven't psychotically done a bunch of testing or anything, but I I do like, you know, that's kind of the start of my process, is maybe like you said, the reverse um of maybe the way you start is like I'll start by just shooting out limiters and seeing what limiter kind of vibes with the song that I chose. Also, I was gonna back up. Sometimes I don't have a choice in what song I start with. That that was actually the more re realistic um answer. But if I'm given the option, if it's I'm just starting from scratch and the band is just trust me and what you know, just do the album, I'll probably pick maybe the best song that I think, you know, because I'm gonna listen to it like a billion times, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, am I gonna pick like track nine, the the 40 BPM piano ballad? Like, I'm not starting with that. No, no. Um, and yeah, I'll just like kind of vibe with it, and yeah, I'll start, I'll shoot out limiters, see which limit, maybe narrow it down to a couple. You know, it's not uncommon to have the the Pro L2 and and and maybe the Isotope right next to each other, and one's muted and one's not, and then I mute the other one and unmute the other, you know. Yeah, sure, absolutely. I've been down that road, yeah.

Ben Holmes: 56:19

That I especially I think um, I mean, one of the crazy things, and I don't know, I can't even back this up with any fact, is my my gut instinct is that I do find myself leaning. I found the the L2 is in like a good rock situation, seems to fit better. The ozone, the isotope one, just seems a bit too smooth at times. Like it's so I did I do, you know, you get yourself in almost like into a mindset of, oh, I just use this limiter, and then occasionally I'll just think, well, I'll just try a different one. And you go, whoa, but did that come totally different, right? Totally different, yeah.

Dan Millice: 56:55

Yeah, that's my I am fully aligned with you on that. I um I do know that certain genres of music maybe don't sound as good going through one or the other. Yeah. You know, I'm I'm I'm trying to be careful here because I don't want to I don't want to like get edited down to like an eight-second clip of me just like saying something bad about something. I wouldn't do that to you, Dan. Um but you know what I mean? Like um certain genres just sound better, and that's that's the other thing I like about the fab filters, the different engines, you know. I really I love all around. I don't know if anybody else listening loves that one too, but all around is like probably my favorite, but transparent if I'm not trying to uh, you know, if I want to be like as invisible as possible. Yeah, and I can dial it in, you know, each, you know, the tempo, the uh what kind of production pr production uh, you know, what what are the drums like in this? Or is there sustaining guitars? Where are the where's the vocals? You know, there's all sorts of variables that go into it, and I don't know that I could guess. You know, sometimes I've I've gone into stuff thinking I was gonna use this and this, and that wasn't the thing, and and I just um so that that was kind of like the concept of not using templates, not using uh a chain. I in those rooms I I've worked in where I have an analog chain, uh for the most part they have the chain set, and you can you know get on the Z Sys router and change the order and stuff, and and and I did that, and and that was cool. And that was like such a great way to learn mastering and you know do my first decade, you know. That that was like the I wouldn't trade that for anything. Um but now I'm like in my second decade, and it's more flexibility with the box, yeah.

Ben Holmes: 59:16

And all the rules of gold.

Dan Millice: 59:19

Yeah, and I don't feel as um imposter syndrome-y as I used to, you know. I still, although I do suffer from it like anyone does. Everybody does, yes, absolutely. You just like wake up some days and you're just like feeling low. It happens.

Nate Kelmes: 59:37

I had that earlier this week, man. Yeah, it's totally like a normal thing.

Dan Millice: 59:40

It's really bad. But it doesn't affect my decisions on what I do when I'm mastering songs for people. So, and I really yeah, I like the flexibility. And the other thing is, you know, some songs, and this goes into that, you know, serve the song concept, which I didn't make that up. I've heard infinite mastering engineers mix engineers. I mean, serve the song, that is not I didn't come up with that, you know. It's just but it's good working. What a great work. Yeah, what a great uh methodology, you know. It's a thousand percent. Yeah. Um if you get a mix that is a hundred percent, like you can't anything you do to this mix is just gonna take away some vibe or some magic. Like you don't know how it was done. It doesn't honestly matter, but you get a mix and it's like this is a hundred percent the perfect mix. Don't do anything to it. Yeah, you know, part of part of the job is no. When not to do stuff, you know.

Nate Kelmes: 1:00:54

So um now that is gotten a mix to master where all you did was just bring the volume up a little bit.

Dan Millice: 1:01:02

Right. Maybe it's that. Maybe it's just do a fade out at the end, you know, and bounce it. Like and clean up the clean up the three seconds of dead space at the front. Like that is serving the song. Yeah. You know? Um if if it's 97% there, your job is to take it that final three percent, that is serving the song. Maybe that's just adding a little air and adding a half a db of limiting to it or something. Um oh, I was gonna say the Oxford limiter. I kind of I kind of vibe with that too. That's stuff. Yeah, yeah. I love I love Oxford stuff. Um, anyways, that's serving the song, you know. Um a lot of indie bedroom stuff could be 80% there, could be 65% there. I don't know. We don't have to like get it math involved in in it or anything, but like Ben loves math. You know, you know what I'm saying? Like you you can hear it, and that's part of being a mastering engineer is like assessing mixes, knowing kind of kind of what the finish line should sound like if we're taking into consideration, you know, everything, the genre, and like, you know, kind of where other stuff in that world is uh is coming out, um, those types of considerations, and then being able to advise your clients on how to maybe make their mix a little better if they're open to that.

Nate Kelmes: 1:02:45

Um well in an ideal world, they'll approach you first and say, Hey, you know, we want to have you master this, but is it ready? But if you get a project to master and you're like, this is 60% there at best, do you kick it back to them and say, It's not ready, here are the things you need to address. They didn't ask you for that. So, what do you do in that situation?

Dan Millice: 1:03:09

It's try it's so tricky. I um I'm still kind of figuring out the right verbiage for this, but to answer your question, I have started kicking stuff back. Um part of the reason is logistical, like I'm super busy now. And like I don't first of all, you have to wait a little bit to get your song mastered, right? And like I didn't used to have a wait, you know. Like back when I was starting, it was like, I could do it today. I got you, you know, like I I could do this in the morning for you, you know. Like, I I don't have that luxury anymore, so I have to be kind of intentional about scheduling and and taking other clients' deadlines into consideration, blah blah blah. Anyways, that's more of like an office logistics kind of problem that everyone has. Uh but basically um I will assess the mix to kind of get an idea of where they're at. And um I I'm not giving them creative feedback. I'm not like, oh, you know, like interesting, F sharp, like right, like yeah, you know, I I'm not giving technical technical points on the I'm just I'm for the most part you're hearing. Yeah, yeah. I'm for the most part giving it like the quick, okay, this is gonna need some work. This is this is doable. This is doable, but I better not book 80 other things that same day because I'm gonna need to focus on this one, you know? Um, or oh, this is like amazing. Let me schedule this for tomorrow because this is not gonna take as long and whatever. Um but it's those, it's those other projects where you're like, damn, like the song could be awesome, but it's just you know, it it maybe sounds like it was done on like their onboard mic on their laptop or something. You know, it's just like it's just not up for it, it's not ready.

Ben Holmes: 1:05:19

And I think uh I think one of the challenges as well, and it probably depends where you are in the musical hierarchy, is you probably get a lot of mixes from very good sources. You know, these are top artists who are sending you mixes from top mix engineers. Um, one of the things that certainly I've found is very difficult is I'll get sent a mix and I might, if I know them well, I'll say I don't think that's quite ready for mastering because the balance is way out, or the you know, you need to do XYZ, or there's a whine in the vocals that you need to take care of. And they'll say, Oh, well, we've paid the mix engineer and we're not really we don't really talk to him anymore. We can't go back. We can't go back. Yeah, and that is a real yeah, then like, okay, well, yeah, there's that to work with what I've got, right? You know, this is that we'll make it work.

Dan Millice: 1:06:09

That totally happens. Um, you know, I I really respect the um I think Ian said this, and I know that some of um some of my other mastering colleagues work uh on the mentality of they intended to send this exactly the way they sent it. They worked so hard on it, and and uh, you know, who am I to to to say that they did it? Um and and that's how they sent it, and that's what they want mastered, and the end. Like I respect that. And I I also am not trying to quote um your your previous guest either. I just um I've heard other mastering engineers say stuff like that, and that is totally valid, and I I respect that. I think my methodology is a little bit of a hybrid um philosophy of like, yeah, I I do that as well. I I assume that they intended the song to sound this way, and I intend to not disrupt it, you know, it just make it a little better if that's all it needs. I'll just try to enhance it a little bit, you know. Um but I also I just it it's it's not even like a moral thing, it's just like I don't I feel bad booking someone for mastering when I know that they're not ready for mastering. So if I hear something, I QC it, I just do a 30-second QC if that if you know maybe I listen to the whole song, but I'm just like, oh man, um, you know, maybe they're mixing it themselves. I'll I'll I'll I'll request a phone call and I'll just say, hey, like, um where you know, what are you what's your vision for this? It's like I'm not gaslighting, you know, I'm not gonna um they might have a unique vision. Who, you know, and I just need to be kind of clued into that. That's fair. I'm into it. Um, but you know, if it's like I can't hear the vocals and it's just like blown out and messed up, um, I need to find out if that was in fact intentional. I'm not gonna like charge them 150 bucks, master their song, send it back. That'd be another 150 bucks, you know. I'm not that guy.

Neil Merchant: 1:08:42

So like like did you mean to bury the vocal? Is that like a stylistic thing? Exactly. I mean, like, because that is a thing. Like back in the 90s, um, the vocal was more buried in a lot of rock music.

Dan Millice: 1:08:56

Yeah, totally. And um, I have those conversations and I do it on the phone usually. Um, I'm pretty adamant about jumping on the phone. I know there's like a generational thing, you know, the like some people don't like talking on phone. They're like, just text me. Why is this guy calling me? God forbid you leave somebody a voicemail. Oh my god. Don't leave a voicemail.

Ben Holmes: 1:09:21

How do I access that again?

Dan Millice: 1:09:23

Yeah. Um, but I just I think it's more efficient on the phone. You know, you can hear my my my voice. You can tell, like I genuinely care about your song. Yeah, and if something is off, I think we're just it's more productive to just flag flag it. Um if if that's what they intended, cool. All right, next Tuesday at 10 a.m. Yeah, mastering this song for you. Uh and if it's like, oh no, like this is my first time doing this, and it's you start to unpeel some some stuff that they didn't share in the email, and they're like, no, like you know, I I went to school for this, and I this is my first self-produced EP or something. It's like, oh, you you came to the right place. Like, thank you, thank you for considering me. Let's do it. And we'll talk we'll schedule time and talk about the mixes and see if we can improve them. If it's if it's the kind of client where they're they don't um they're not mixing themselves, or maybe they're like, Yeah, my my cousin went to this school and does this and it's not that good, or whatever. I'll just be like, hey, you know, would you be open to uh a call with my buddy Jim Stewart? You know, like can I get you on the phone with Jim Stewart tomorrow? Like, and that, you know, like I will connect someone with a mixer, yeah. Um or whatever, you know, like that that's kind of my thing. I I don't want to just book it and master it and bill it and you know, just keep going around. Because I'll lose I'll lose steam on the thing, and I I'm really fresh on it. Like I commit to that song, and I'm you know, I'm trying out different limiters and EQs, and I just like if I gotta redo it from scratch again, you know what I'm saying? I'm I'm starting from scratch again because but I knew the mix was gonna get remixed, it's just I don't have time, and yeah, it's just better, and I think people truly appreciate that. Yeah, that extra time and that extra communication. Um, I want my clients to be able to, you know, they have my number. Like you they can text me directly, they don't have to talk to the front desk person and take a message and blah blah blah. I've I've been in that um sort of situation, and that totally is cool. Very good. But my thing is yeah, my thing is personal. And um that's awesome. Yeah, that's what I'm doing, and you know, that's that's the way to go.

Nate Kelmes: 1:12:06

I mean, in in a world of of AI and and talking with people, you know, not in the room, you know, even if they're even if you're not meeting with these people, giving them that personal sort of attention, that personal touch to, you know, what is a disconnected process nowadays, really, you know, making it feel like you're in the room with them, hearing them, really hearing them. Well, that also makes them feel like right. And let's say, you know, and and let's uh let's apply that concept to just a run-of-the-mill mastering engineer, right? They're they're just trying to excel at what they do. I mean, they're not trying to win awards, they're just trying to, you know, pay the bills and and and pursue their art. Even if you don't turn in the most pristine top-notch, you know, master, giving somebody that personal attention, going the extra mile in your service, is going to be worth more than, you know, the best master in the world, right?

Ben Holmes: 1:13:16

Yeah. I mean it's all about uh it's all about people working with people, isn't it? That's the thing.

Nate Kelmes: 1:13:20

Yeah, it's providing it's providing a service. Yeah. I mean, you're you're you're in the art of cust you're in the art of customer service, Dan. You you just happen to be a top-notch mastering engineer at the same time. Thank you, brother.

Dan Millice: 1:13:33

Um I I literally it all comes back to uh the artist and or you know the client, the customer, you know, if you if you want to look at it uh from a business perspective, it is uh it is client focused. Yeah. I'm not focused on competitors, quote unquote. Um, I'm not focused on what anyone else is doing. Uh the only person that I'm focused on is the artist that I'm working with, or the producer, or the mixer, whoever it is that brought me this song, that is um that's who I'm serving.

Neil Merchant: 1:14:21

Yeah.

Dan Millice: 1:14:21

You know, that that is the whole the whole thing in in a nutshell. Serve the song, you know. It doesn't matter whose song it is, it doesn't matter what continent they're from or what genre of music it is. And that that is another thing that I I'm really lucky is and I and I do I think have you know going to App State and being you know getting a music degree and being classically trained, you know, I love all genres of music. I'm working with a client in India, I'm working with a client in Buenos Aires, you know, I'm I'm working with a client in Cleveland, Ohio, Nashville, Tennessee, Istanbul, Turkey.

Ben Holmes: 1:15:06

Amazing.

Dan Millice: 1:15:07

All the songs sound completely different. Like, couldn't be more different. And um, I love that. And I do know, and it's just like of course it happens to people if you do if you do just a bunch of big rock album, or let let's go even more niche than that, like heavy metal. I don't get a ton of heavy metal stuff. The heavy metal world is like kind of small.

Nate Kelmes: 1:15:36

I'm sure it's pretty small, you know.

Dan Millice: 1:15:38

Yeah, and like if you don't do heavy metal every day, you don't do heavy metal, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, like those guys that it's like it's a very uh closed, you know, close knit group of uh professionals. It from what I can tell. I mean, I I'm no I you're I think you're absolutely right. I'm not saying they're not welcoming of other people, I'm just saying like who gets hired to mix all of those records, it's like the same ten people.

Ben Holmes: 1:16:09

And they use the same mastering engineers and the oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Dan Millice: 1:16:14

Oh, uh you go to the Grammys and you'll like you'll see they'll um you know they flash it up on the screen and they'll show you the the credits on some of these uh awards that are coming up, and it'll be like you'll just read the same name and and you're like, oh my god, like the guy mixed four of the five nominees in this category. Like he's probably winning a Grammy.

Nate Kelmes: 1:16:40

This you know, like it's it's like pop and serb and gunea, right? It's like he mixed every single song that you love uh every year. Uh real quick, uh, what's it like being at the Grammys, man? What what's that like?

Dan Millice: 1:16:52

Yeah.

Nate Kelmes: 1:16:53

The Grammys, um, it's cool.

Dan Millice: 1:16:55

It's uh it's definitely like exhilarating, definitely kind of intimidating for me. You know, I'm I'm like, should I bring binoculars? Because I'm sitting in the back row, like um winning my Grammy. It's humbling, yeah. I mean it no, I mean it's uh out of you know, out of the 15 things that I'm credited working on that have been nominated, one has won. You know, and that is like incredible to me.

Neil Merchant: 1:17:29

I mean that is one more than anything that I've done.

Ben Holmes: 1:17:32

I think the fact you've just gone only one has won. I mean, the number of people you can agree. Yeah, that's amazing. Totally.

Dan Millice: 1:17:41

No, I totally um but there's also like you know, 14 times that they say another artist's name, and you're like, yeah, you're not you're that close.

Ben Holmes: 1:17:52

Yeah, I think 15 time nominated is also something that you should just have a massive billboard written about.

Nate Kelmes: 1:17:58

I mean, yeah, but the fact that you're even nominated means.

Ben Holmes: 1:18:00

I'd have a t-shirt printed up that says I would wear it every day.

Dan Millice: 1:18:06

Also, I just want to say this because I'm uh I'm probably overthinking it, but you know, uh for what it's worth, I myself I'm not actually been nominated. Like I have mastered an album that got nominated, and I'm the I'm the mastering engineer, but I actually, you know, I just want to say that I know it's probably not the sexiest thing to say, but um, you know, these are my clients that have been nominated, and I guess I'm yeah, you know, like um I'm I've been a participant on on 15 Grammy nominations.

Neil Merchant: 1:18:50

You've imparted your like to throw it back at you, you have you have imparted your would they have been nominated had you not mastered it?

Nate Kelmes: 1:18:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, think about that. You never know. You never know. I don't think that it's unfair for you to say that, you know, yes, I participated in those, I was not directly nominated. But I also think it's fair for you to say, I had a hand in that. It may not have happened.

Dan Millice: 1:19:17

Right. And it's fifth, you know, 15. I when I was like, oh damn, like this is 15. That's I mean, that's not like a fluke. No, you know.

Nate Kelmes: 1:19:26

No. No, you're doing something, you know, very intentional and very real. And you know, you you talk about each attempt before uh you won a Grammy, you know. Let's uh those were steps that you were taking, and and every year you could see that you were getting closer and closer, and then bam, you hit it.

Dan Millice: 1:19:43

Yeah, yeah, that that is uh that is true. Like again, it goes back to um I mean, I hate I I don't love like the word hustle. It's just like been so overdone. But the legwork, you know, of you're putting the work in the right. Yeah, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I have, you know, New York, it's freezing, it rains, it snows, it sleets, it's like disgusting out, and it's Tuesday night, you know, and I got stuff to do in the morning. I got, you know, revisions to do or invoices to send or whatever. I mean, this is like a I'm working the job of eight of eight people, you know, and I'm forcing myself to go to Music Hall of William Williamsburg at 10:30 p.m. Uh, you know, for the late set to see this band that doesn't even know I exist. Yeah. You know, I don't have any connection to the band. I don't know the producer. I mean, I I can look him up and I know, oh, there he is. I recognize him from Instagram, but what am I just gonna walk up to this person and like hand him a business card? Like, that is not, you know, that's not what it, you know. So doing that stuff um kind of aimlessly, I mean, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Um, I I remember going to South by Southwest and you know, getting the flu, you know, like at South by Southwest, trying to, you know, get client get more clients or get more uh prospects, you know, maybe call that prospecting, you know, just exactly what it is. Sure, yeah, yeah, networking. Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff, you know, like that uh over the span of a decade. And then, you know, I can't stop. Like, that's another thing. I can't I can't stop. I can't just kick back and enjoy this time where my phone rings a lot. Because, you know, without saying any names, I I have seen mastering engineers, mixed engineers, music producers who were like killing it that aren't as busy as I think they should be, at least. Um, knowing how good they are at what they do, I'm shocked.

Ben Holmes: 1:22:18

You know, did they did they just stop doing the reps though? Did they just stop putting in the time and the certain point and they kind of go on autopilot, right?

Neil Merchant: 1:22:27

Yeah, like I don't know exactly uh Or could it be that they're in a in a in a location where there's not as much work. You you're you talk about New York, it's rainy, it's wet, it's but but on a Tuesday you can go see a show and network.

Dan Millice: 1:22:41

It's an awesome band.

Neil Merchant: 1:22:43

Right. Where I live in Florida, the weather is uh hot and we've discussed hours. Yeah, it's got stuff. 300 and something days of freaking sunshine. Oh, it's oh it sounds awful. Right. But in my city where I live in, there's barely any venues for live music. I have to travel an hour usually to get to a venue for me to play. Um Tuesday night, there's there's no bands playing on Tuesday nights.

Dan Millice: 1:23:14

Totally. It's it's not it's not frictionless anywhere. Um and that's why, you know, I I could make a point for moving into a place like New York, which I consider the greatest city in the world. No disrespect to any other cool cities, but New York um is what I chose because of that. You know, it's all the major labels have offices in New York City. Um all of the um, you know, bands aren't skipping New York on their tour, you know, like every band goes through New York. Bands skip my hometown all the time. Um yeah, sure. But it's it, you know, it's just uh you're exactly right, man.

Neil Merchant: 1:24:02

Um it's you could I drive out of my I drive out of my neighborhood and there's a cow pasture. Totally, totally.

Dan Millice: 1:24:10

You have to put you have to put yourself in those uh rooms to like get lucky and hit it off with somebody, and it's like, oh, the drummer, you know, awesome, perfect. You know, this is one more person than I knew before I came. And you do that like hundreds and hundreds of times. Yeah, and um you met a lot of people. Yeah, I just kept networking and and and I and I have to continue that. I mean, I have to continue that. I'm I'm I'm saying it here like publicly, like I I am not gonna stop doing that because I just you know you can't rest on you can't like rest on your credits, you know. Like you have to keep going and keep going and keep going. And you might get like a a big run of like you know, for me, I'm I'm like I'm doing some pretty cool jazz albums and some pretty cool hip hop records and some pretty like really cool rock bands and stuff, but um if I just stay in my studio for the next 10 years, I promise you I won't be as busy now ten years from today as I am today.

Nate Kelmes: 1:25:32

And that's just just that this totally mirrors um what we talked about in uh the February episode going to NAM, talking about getting out of your studio, going in and meeting people, whether it's once a year or once a month or once a week, you gotta do it. And and your proof of that, Dan, you know, you have killed it. And you've you've achieved what so many people have worked their entire lives to achieve, and you've done it. So congratulations to you, man. Like that is so nice. That is incredible. And and I think that anyone who wants to be a musician, a mastering engineer, a mixing engineer, a producer, whatever, the same principles all apply. Totally. And and uh so yeah, thank you, Dan, for for coming on to our podcast and telling us your story. This is really incredible. Uh two quick questions before we go. Softball. Softball question. You brought the hat. He brought the hat. What is your favorite plug-in? Desert Island cannot live without your lab one.

Neil Merchant: 1:26:41

Uh which is a hard question because you you have that no template.

Dan Millice: 1:26:50

This is the stumper. No, it's so good. Yeah, I know. You're you might have to delete like 30 seconds of silence. That's all right. Um I mean, I I've probably said this in our mastermind group, but the Pro Q3 is like my I'm taking this on the desert island. Can't that's like 90% of the people. You guys are like pro Q4, and I'm like, do I need that? Like, do I really need it? And I haven't upgraded yet. No, I haven't.

Nate Kelmes: 1:27:26

I I'm still on Pro Q3. Um I I see some people doing videos, they're still on Pro Q2.

Ben Holmes: 1:27:33

I mean, those those Pro Q EQs are just this amazing.

Dan Millice: 1:27:37

It's just yeah, that's my desert island. Like, that's my um Swiss Army knife. Swiss Army knife, yeah. You know, I need I need I need transparent EQ. You know, I need um I just need a solid EQ that doesn't in in you know inject things. Yeah, introduce like I don't I'm not going with like this noisy tube thing.

Ben Holmes: 1:28:08

It's pretty tightly with you.

Nate Kelmes: 1:28:10

So then the other question is what is your doll of choice? What are you working on? Oh, I'm doing Wave Lab.

Dan Millice: 1:28:18

Okay.

Nate Kelmes: 1:28:18

Yeah.

Dan Millice: 1:28:19

Have you heard of Wave Lab? Oh yeah, that's what I use as well. Ben uses it. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, I love Wave Lab. Uh although, you know, I've tried them, I've tried them all. I've maybe not all of them, but you know, Pyramids, Sonic, uh Sequoia, Pro Tools, obviously, like um probably leaving out a few. But yeah, I'm on Wavelab. Wave Lab is affordable. Yeah. It does all the mastering stuff I need it to do.

Ben Holmes: 1:28:51

You know, I think the fact it's pretty much designed as a mastering DAW means it does the mastering things more efficiently than most of the others. I think is the sort of my is my position on it. You can do it in all the others, but Wavelab just is kind of built for it and so makes it makes it easy.

Dan Millice: 1:29:12

Oh yeah. No, I I could do all of the audio processing stuff exactly the same way in a Pro Tools. I could do it in, you know, if it actually probably more efficiently, maybe even in some other DOS, but because of what you said, and also having the built-in, you know, all the authoring stuff and yeah, um also, you know, I mean I mean this is all like Google, so it's not like I'm unveiling some secret thing, but it's just you know, I I was on Sequoia, and Sequoia is like multiple thousands of dollars for a license. And I was building that's insane, and I was building my vacation rig. I wasn't even building like a studio rig, you know. I I just wanted to be able to go on my family beach trip, you know, and not like maybe miss out on an opportunity of a lifetime to work with some artist that I mean that's just hypothetical. Like that it doesn't happen, like we said, you bring the rig and that that call doesn't come in. But uh, you know, I just needed the vacation rig. So I was like, what's what's like sort of equivalent? Does the same stuff, works on a PC. Um Wave Lab was was where was what I went with, and I'm very happy that I did that. That's awesome. Great.

Neil Merchant: 1:30:41

I have I have one software. Oh please, oh, you said you said that you were in a band at one point. We I like to ask what was the name of your first band?

Dan Millice: 1:30:55

The Jalapenos. Yes. That's awesome. Fucking spicy. That's a great name. Ask about us. Yeah. Like if you lived in Charlotte, it's funny. I've said this to people that lived in Charlotte in like 2005, and they're like, never heard of you. Which is so funny. Um, because that's the reality. We were all like 17, and we thought we were, you know. I thought I was gonna be like the next Joe Perry or something, you know. Like I was like, we're gonna be rock stars, man. Yeah. We all did it in 17. Yeah. And it's fun, it's funny you mentioned chili peppers because like everyone would be like, so you guys are like super into the chili peppers, right? And it was just we just thought jalapenos was a funny name. Where it was like it's cool. Yeah, and we spelled it with an H. Oh, nice, yeah. You know, and we and we like worked, you know, like some peppers into our like album art. I mean, it you know, we were committed. It's fun.

Nate Kelmes: 1:31:58

It was super fun, yeah.

Dan Millice: 1:31:59

Yeah, the jalapenos. I I was um I guess I was the lead guitar player and like the co-lead vocal.

Neil Merchant: 1:32:07

There you go.

Dan Millice: 1:32:07

Nice, you know, and yeah, we played a lot of covers, but we also we we made a record of like actually I don't remember how many songs it was, but you know, all originals. And that was like my first time being in a studio.

Nate Kelmes: 1:32:22

Oh man, I I smell uh um I smell a hunt coming on. We have to go find that record. I've got like 490 unopened.

Dan Millice: 1:32:32

You can have 15 copies of it if you want.

Ben Holmes: 1:32:35

Yeah, 500 men needs to be full of it.

Dan Millice: 1:32:37

My dad is like, my dad's like, anybody want any of these? Like what is it called? Uh disc makers. You know, disc makers, yeah. We use disc makers, it's cellophane, it's got a barcode, it's nice.

Nate Kelmes: 1:32:52

All right, Dan. We are officially out of time, but man, thank you so much for being here today. It's been amazing. Uh this has been a really great conversation, and and thank you for bringing your story to us. Uh this was great.

Dan Millice: 1:33:04

Yeah, thank you for having me, and I hope I didn't um ramble too too much.

Ben Holmes: 1:33:09

No, it was awesome. It's great. It's perfect.

Dan Millice: 1:33:13

Awesome. Thank you, guys.

Nate Kelmes: 1:33:28

Thank you for listening to Sound Discussion. Your hosts are Ben Holmes, Neil Merchant, and me, Nate Kelms. Our theme song is composed and recorded by Jojo Timmerman. You can find us on the internet at Sound Discussion Podcast.com, or you can drop us a line at SoundDiscussion Podcast at gmail.com. Additional show notes for this episode can be found on our website or in the description area of your podcast player. A big thank you to our guest for taking the time to chat with us today, and to you, the listener, for taking time out of your busy schedule to be part of our discussion. We look forward to having you join us again next month on another episode of Sound Discussion.

Dan Millice: 1:34:11

God forbid you leave somebody a voicemail. Oh my god.

Nate Kelmes: 1:34:14

Don't leave a voicemail.

Ben Holmes: 1:34:15

How do I access that again?