#193: I Asked a Pro If You Really Need a Mastering Engineer - And If You Can DIY (feat. Mike Marsh)

Acclaimed mastering engineer Mike Marsh demystifies the final stage of music production in this insightful episode. With a career spanning over three decades, working with artists like Björk, The Chemical Brothers, and Depeche Mode, Mike offers unparalleled expertise on what music mastering is and why it's important.

He addresses the common misconception of the "fix it in mastering" mindset, explaining that mastering cannot correct issues that should have been resolved during mixing. This highlights the critical difference between mixing and mastering in music.

Mike shares practical music mastering tips for independent artists, emphasising the importance of understanding your listening environment over relying solely on expensive equipment. He notes that some of the best mixes he's received came from modest home studios, underscoring that quality results are achievable without high-end gear.

The discussion also covers common mastering mistakes to avoid, such as over-compression and neglecting proper monitoring. Mike weighs in on the debate: Do you need a mastering engineer or can you DIY? He suggests that while self-mastering is possible, a professional's fresh perspective often enhances the final product.

Whether you're a seasoned producer or just starting, this episode provides valuable insights to elevate your music's final polish.

Links mentioned in this episode:

Listen to Half-Life

Follow Mike Marsh

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Inside The Mix
• 1:37 What Is Music Mastering and Why Is It Important?
• 5:26 Common Mastering Mistakes and Studio Monitoring Issues
• 11:17 Debunking the "Fix It in Mastering" Myth
• 17:40 Music Mastering Tips: Why Less Is More in Mixing
• 22:24 Difference Between Mixing and Mastering in Music
• 32:48 AI Mastering vs. Mastering Engineer: What You Need to Know
• 39:31 How to Become a Mastering Engineer: Mike Marsh's Advice

Transcript

Mike Marsh: 0:00

I would say the best thing for somebody to do to get their head around their own monitoring system, because not everybody's going to be able to afford reference monitors or you know, if they've got to use cheap speakers you can listening to or you think sounds good and sounds good elsewhere and reference your mix to that track just to see where you think, oh OK, now I can really see what's missing in my mix. Maybe it is my monitoring that's making me, you know, make the wrong calls with EQs and stuff like that.

Rich Bosic: 0:43

Hey Inside the Mix podcast fans, it's Rich Bozic. You can find me on the Face your Ears podcast and at bozicvoicestudiocom. You are listening to the Inside the Mix podcast. Here's your host, mark Matthews. Take it away.

Marc Matthews: 1:00

Welcome to Inside the Mix, your go-to podcast for music creation and production. Whether you're crafting your first track or refining your mixing skills, join me each week for expert interviews, practical tutorials and insights to help you level up your music and smash it in the music industry. Let's dive in. Hey folks, before we dive into this episode, my new song, half-life, dropped on Friday that's Friday, the 2nd of May. Click the link in the episode description. If you like the idea of melodic dystopian house, give it a spin and let me know what you think, as your feedback means a lot. Let's dive into this episode. Hello folks, welcome back to Inside the Mix, or welcome if you are a new listener, welcome. Welcome back to Inside the Mix. Welcome. If you are a new listener, welcome welcome.

Marc Matthews: 1:49

Today I am joined by renowned mastering engineer from just around the corner to me in Exmouth. I'm based in Exeter. If you're an avid listener of the podcast, you probably know that already Engineer, mastering engineer Mike Marsh, whose career spans over 30 years working with legendary artists like Bjork, the Chemical Brothers, oasis, depeche Mode, calvin Harris and Kasabian. In this episode we're diving into what mastering does and why. Maybe some common misconceptions as well, whether you should master your tracks or hire an expert. That's a critical one, one, I think, and is mastering always necessary. So, mike, welcome, welcome it's great.

Mike Marsh: 2:28

Thank you very much for having me on board, and I was going to say welcome to devon, but you're already here I know, I know so for the audience listening.

Marc Matthews: 2:36

I discovered, uh, mike through mike indivina's podcast. Uh, master your mix. I'll put a link to that episode in the episode description. So once you've listened to this one, dive over and have a listen to um, master your mix as well. So I discovered mike on that podcast and I was, and that's when I was just like well, have I not spoken to this guy before on the podcast? Bear in mind, he is just around the corner from me in sunny exmouth, very sunny exmouth today.

Mike Marsh: 2:59

My, uh, my ad as well, if it's anything like exeter absolutely yeah, in fact, I've been on the beach with the dog this afternoon for two hours, um, knee deep in sand and, uh, the tide was out. So, yeah, what's not to like on a day off of work when there's when there's blue sky and sunshine in this country, you got to make the most of it, right oh, most definitely, and, uh, I know I know this is, uh, this particular time we're talking in real time, but the weather at the moment is absolutely fantastic.

Marc Matthews: 3:24

I was in Lyme Regis on Saturday on the Jurassic Coast, and that's why I love being in the Southwest.

Mike Marsh: 3:32

This area is a whole different place. It's very Jekyll and Hyde. In the winter it's cold, dark and nobody's about. In the summer, the whole place is buzzing. Wait till we get to July and august, and if we get some heat as well, it's just, it's the place to be yeah, I most definitely, and I regularly walk along exmouth uh, seafront uh, whenever the weather's good nice down to the beach straight down there.

Marc Matthews: 3:57

Love it, absolutely, absolutely love it. So, uh, yeah, audience listening. If you've never been to the southwest um, exmouth is a is amouth is definitely a place to check out Fantastic place.

Mike Marsh: 4:08

Good beach, good food good beers.

Marc Matthews: 4:12

Yeah, and we mentioned Sidmouth as well off air Sidmouth's another great place. I think that's where you mentioned you were from, if I remember correctly, sidmouth's home for me, it's where I grew up as a kid as well.

Mike Marsh: 4:20

So, yeah, my roots are definitely set here and, yeah, kid as well. So, uh, yeah, my, my roots are definitely set here. Um, and yeah, it's just a. It's a nice chilled out place to be, um, especially after you've had kind of a full-on day working on on music and you just want to come home and chill out. Um, I used to work in london as well, as we were saying, for 28 years, so I did the commute every week. So to come back to Sidmouth was like almost like going on holiday. You know what that does for you in terms of of recharging your batteries, yeah, um, so yeah, it's great and it meant you could. You could get your energies back again and then throw yourself headlong back into sessions and be well up for it.

Marc Matthews: 5:02

So, yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, I didn't live in london, but I did move away. I moved to move to cardiff and I moved up to bristol as well and um, albeit not as sort of big as london. But when I came back to the southwest I was like you know what I? I do, I do like it here oh yeah, I'm glad I came back, so totally with you there.

Marc Matthews: 5:21

So moving on to mastering. So the idea with this episode folks listening is you'll have a clearer understanding of mastering itself and how to ensure your tracks sound the best across all platforms. So I think we strip it right back to basics, um, in terms of what is mastering and why it's necessary. So maybe you could talk about mastering and, uh, yeah, basically what it is and why it is necessary in music production I'm still figuring that out after 30 odd years.

Mike Marsh: 5:49

Uh no, mastering is. It's basically the, the very last um point of the process in making music where you can sonically change stuff um and hopefully make stuff sound better if it doesn't sound very good already. So we get in there with equalizers, limiters, compressors and that could be outboard gear traditional outboard gear, if you're a bit old school like me. I'm using a lot of analog valve equipment, but also with a combination of your digital workstation. So plugins come into play. I'm not a massive plugin user, but there are times when you know that you're going to get good result using plugins as well as the analog gear. So it's really the last stage at which you can change the sound of a mix.

Mike Marsh: 6:40

And if you've got a dodgy sounding mix, sometimes you've got to do a lot with all your buttons and knobs. If you've got a good mix, I always have the if it ain't broke, don't fix it attitude and I'm not looking to do something if it doesn't need doing. But very often now lots of artists, producers and engineers are working in a semi-professional environment, perhaps with not the best monitoring, so it's not everything's not kind of as crystal critically clear as it used to be when you booked yourself into a big studio. So sometimes mastering is even more important now because you've got more amateurs making music and they often don't have, you know, a seasoned professional overseeing what they're doing. Nothing wrong with making it up as you go along, and, trust me, I've heard some of the best sounding mixes come out of a teenager's bedroom on his laptop. It's like whoa, okay, how did you do that?

Mike Marsh: 7:41

and I've heard some of the worst sounding mixes come out of big studios with big name producers and I've put them on and gone really. So there's and there's no rules in mastering. You never know what you're going to get given from any given source, from any different country as well, because I work on a lot of artists from overseas, from the States right the way across to Japan, so you know it really is a kind of a blank canvas when you get sent a mix.

Marc Matthews: 8:46

Very interesting. I like what you said there in particular about the difference is when you mentioned. You've got the bedroom producers and their setup, and then you've got the higher, higher end studios and sometimes you'll get a submission from an artist who's in a bedroom studio scenario and they've got a fantastic sounding mix. And then you've got the polar opposite in this high-end studio and it takes me back to when I was doing, uh, a degree and there was a, there was a, there was a lad and he was mixing and he used to, and he was mixing using apple earbuds and the mixes he would get out of them absolutely fantastic and I guess that's because he probably knew he'd used them so much and listened to so much music on them.

Mike Marsh: 9:23

He knew the response of those headphones and was able to really dial in with them that's the key thing because, um, whenever you're making music or fiddling around with the sound of it, if you know exactly what you're listening to, you will get those results. So the guy using his earbuds if he's, all he's ever mixed on is those and he knows what sounds good outside of the box when it's played elsewhere he's going to nail it most of the time because he's got a reference point. And that, as well, is a key thing. About mastering. You'll find that a lot of mastering engineers don't work in multiple studios. They work, work in. Like myself, I worked in the studio at the Exchange for nearly 30 years and the good thing about that is you're so in tune with your sonic space and when you're making critical calls on people's music, you need to know exactly what you're listening to.

Marc Matthews: 10:16

You can't be second guessing what you're listening to because you're making crucial adjustments on somebody's mix yeah, most definitely you mentioned, uh, with regards to the mixes that have been submitted and the more sort of air quotes, amateur mixes that are sending you submissions what if you had to highlight sort of maybe one or two common misconceptions, mixed mistakes let's say mixed mistakes what would they be?

Mike Marsh: 10:44

That's a difficult one because it can be such a mixed bag. But if I'm trying to think on my feet, I would say mixes coming in that are too sub-bassy, too dumpy and not enough energy in the sound, and sometimes that comes from essentially the monitors not putting that bottom end thickness and bass over to the mixing engineer, that they crank loads of it into the mix just so they can hear it on their not-so-good monitors.

Mike Marsh: 11:16

And then effectively, you end up with a mix that is just so skewed the wrong way because they've mixed it how they think they're hearing it, but then you put it somewhere else and in the outside world and it's a disaster because it doesn't translate on any other system. So that's why monitoring in any environment is the key to what you're doing and getting a good result.

Marc Matthews: 11:40

So just touching on that there, if you are a mix engineer and you've got a less than adequate room, a bedroom producer, something along those lines, and you really wanted to dial in or hone in that low end, are there any sort of tips or tricks you can think of that will help with that? Is it something that you could better hear with headphones? I know you mentioned there you use in particular sort of analog gear. Is there anything in the digital realm that can?

Mike Marsh: 12:08

help the listeners with that. Headphones sometimes can be a real dangerous listening environment because often they don't um, they don't go full range. Yeah, your headphones might say, oh, they'll go 20 hertz sub bass to 20k top end, but actually do they? Um? I would say the best thing for somebody to do to get their head around their own monitoring system, because not everybody's going to be able to afford reference monitors or, you know, if they've got to use cheap speakers, you can get good if you know what they sound like. So use a reference track.

Mike Marsh: 12:48

Use, um, if you're mixing a certain genre, pull up a track of somebody, um that you like listening to or you think sounds good and it sounds good elsewhere, and reference your mix to to that track, just to see where you think, oh okay, now I can really see what's missing in my mix. Maybe it is my monitoring that's making me, you know, make the wrong calls with EQs and stuff like that. You could try headphones and then the monitors that you've got. If you've only got headphones, I would say that's going to restrict you quite a lot and make your life a bit more difficult, unless you know they're really good headphones. That you understand. I mean, you mentioned that guy with his earbuds earlier on. That just doesn't make sense. But he's gotten hold of the fact of what he's listening to. So that is the magic. But a reference track is going to help you come to some opinion about what your room sounds like yes, uh, I, for throughout the previous what's this?

Marc Matthews: 13:48

193, 193 episodes, I probably mentioned reference tracks on at least, I'd say, 60 or 70 percent of the episode in particular. And I really like what you said there about look at the, the actual response of the reference track. And it's something I do as well in particular, if I've got a reference track, then also in production I find I use it as well. When there's a particular sound I like of a song, I'm thinking, okay, well, what frequency, what's the tonal balance of that track, how is it, what does it look like? And that's and here obviously we listened as well but that I can get frequency analyzers up and I I get quite scientific with it, dig in. But reference tracks are fantastic for that, I think so it's a great piece of advice.

Mike Marsh: 14:29

They are and, and you know, um, I mean I use a, a clark technic spectrum analyzer at the studio so I can see all the different frequency bands as well, so that gives you a little bit of extra visual on what you think you're listening to. But I know that, like you can probably get plugins that have got a spectrum analyzer, so you could, you could, run that up with your mix as well and just take a look visually and see whether it correlates with what you're hearing yeah, most definitely.

Marc Matthews: 14:58

Yeah, yeah, fantastic advice. So, moving on from that, my next sort of topic and we've kind of touched on this already really is that classic sort of fix it in the mastering or even fix it in the mix which you hear if you're coming from the recording realm. But it's okay, they'll fix it in the mastering, which makes me cringe whenever I say it. Can you tell our audience a bit about what it can and cannot do?

Mike Marsh: 15:25

OK. So yeah, let them fix it later. Attitude just smacks of somebody not doing their job properly at all. I hate that. And yeah, it gets used a lot, you know. So a mastering engineer will do everything he can to make your track sound as good as something that you know is out there commercially. But there are limitations, you know, for there commercially, but there are limitations, you know, for the most part I try not to be, I try not to be working from stems.

Mike Marsh: 15:55

So stems mastering is another thing that has become quite popular in the last few years, which, as an explanation, is basically somebody send you all the different elements of their mix for you to then call that up and do the mastering the minute. Anybody sends, wants to send me stems. That is the classic example of let them fix it at mastering. It's basically why are you sending me the stems? So I've got mix control. If you're not actually happy with your mix, you've let me take over what you should be doing. So I'm not a fan of stems mastering. I'll do it on a few minimal ones, but you know, not 48 of them please. So the thing is, when we're mastering, for the most part we're working with a stereo WAV file. So your left channel and your right channel and you are restricted. You've not got individual fader control over all of the elements, you've only got equalization control over the general tone of the sound of your mix.

Mike Marsh: 16:55

Having said that, you can do a heck of a lot. You know you can transform a mix just with eq, provided that the mix balance is good and the separation between all the elements is not fighting for space. Because if it's fighting for space and you try and eq something, you're going to eq everything else around what you're fighting with. So the key is to have a lot of separation between the elements in your mix, particularly in the bottom end, like kicks, bass, bass lines, all that kind of stuff, because once that stuff becomes a mess it's really difficult to home in at mastering and tidy it up.

Mike Marsh: 17:38

If, say, for example, you had a very bass heavy mix that was very dumpy and lifeless sounding, then you get in with some some mid range, some 3k, some 5k, get the snappiness back in the sound, some mid-range, some 3k, some 5k, get the snappiness back in the sound. And maybe you're going to need some high tops as well for, you know, for those hats and the, just the air in the sound For the most part that's what I find I'm concentrating on an awful lot is the mid-range energy and the high end clarity. Most people normally nail the bass end, even if there's too much of it.

Mike Marsh: 18:10

I can get in there and enliven a mix and make it sound energetic without asking for a recall on the mix. You can just get in there and do it with EQ, but it totally relies on everything else in the mix allowing you to do that.

Marc Matthews: 18:25

Yeah, what you mentioned there about stem mastering was quite interesting because I've received stems and done mastering but I'd never actually thought of it, never tweaked in my brain. Actually, are they sending me this because they want me to basically mix it for them?

Rich Bosic: 18:41

I never actually considered that.

Marc Matthews: 18:43

It did cross my mind until you mentioned it then. Now, going forward, I'm going to ask a few more questions. It's very rarely that I get STEM masters, to be fair, but it's an interesting one. I never really thought of it that way. Maybe I should have done.

Mike Marsh: 18:57

Well, it always. Any time I see an email come in saying, can we send you STEMs? Straight away, I'm like OK, so you're not happy with your mix, right? So then you get into this whole mixing and mastering thing, and I know that's the modern way forward, but I'm an old git who's come from the old school 30 plus years of doing it. And you have mixing engineers, you have mastering engineers, and everybody should be on top of their game doing their job indeed, indeed, I totally agree.

Marc Matthews: 19:26

I think, specifically if you are an artist, musician, and you and you have outsourced mixing to someone to do it for you and they're inherently not necessarily doing it to the best of their ability, or maybe they need to think about their processes themselves, you'd like to think that they would be, yeah, when you work on other people's music.

Mike Marsh: 19:47

You have to be on top of your game the whole time. When I'm working in the studio, uh, whatever genre of music it is, whatever artist it is, I treat it as if it's my music. So it becomes a very personal crusade. It's not just me doing a job for somebody else and saying, right, there's the invoice, thanks, bye. Next it. You know you've got to throw yourself into it and keep the bar raised the whole time because, trust me, there'll be plenty of. You know you've got to throw yourself into it and keep the bar raised the whole time because, trust me, there'll be plenty of. You know young whippersnappers coming along who will take all your clients if you, if you let the side down and you know, don't give it. 110 percent.

Marc Matthews: 20:30

Just to segue slightly or tangent slightly here, as you mentioned genres, music, etc. So you are. Are there any genres that you would not turn away but you'd be like not too sure about that one, or are you sort of open to any sort of music being sent your way?

Mike Marsh: 20:41

Yeah, anything In terms of my kind of background and CV. I've not worked on much classical music in my whole life, to be fair. A few, you know, maybe a few movie scores and stuff like that.

Mike Marsh: 20:54

But my kind of CV is so all over the place and goes off on tangents from rock to drum and bass to dance music to you know it's every. But I love that because I'm not pigeonholed in one genre and effectively what I'm doing is the same thing to a rock track or a hip hop track or a drum and bass track. You got to be mindful of the genre a little bit, because certain frequencies need to pop a bit more for a certain genre. But the bottom line when you're mastering is you're aiming to achieve out of what you've been sent the same thing, which is, you know, perfection as far as you can get it and an engaging listen, whether it be, you know, a screaming rock band or a sub heavy drum and bass outfit.

Marc Matthews: 21:44

Interesting. Just swinging it back to the stem mastering discussion we were having just then. Just swinging it back to the stem mastering discussion we were having just then. You mentioned an interesting bit which was about instruments or sounds, let's say, fighting for space, and this is a topic that I've sort of spoken about on the podcast before, in particular with maybe more sort of up-and-coming mixers or producers or artists mixing their own music. Are there any tips or tricks there? Is there like one particular piece of advice you would give them, in particular with regards to instruments and finding space in a mix for each instrument?

Mike Marsh: 22:19

Yeah, probably a spectrum analyzer so that you can actually you can also see what's going on.

Mike Marsh: 22:27

Music is all about frequencies and there are certain instruments that will all be in the same kind of area.

Mike Marsh: 22:36

A classic case, for example, is like I may get a request on a on a mastering job where somebody says, oh, the vocal sounds a little bit low, it's a little bit shy in the mix, and then you put the mix on and the guitars or mid-range elements of the mix are in your face already. So you've got absolutely no chance of trying to dig that vocal out because all the other frequencies in around that vocal area are pushed too high. So, yeah, a spectrum analyzer is going to give you a clear view and any mixing music and working on music, sometimes visual aids are really important. You need that kind of that second set of ears, if you like, and that's your eyes that give you that clarity on what you think you're mixing. You know it's not hard to get separation between the elements, but it's the more you throw into a mix, the more likely you're going to clutter everything up. You know, and one of the classic lines with a mix and I always hand it back to clients saying just think hip hop.

Marc Matthews: 23:48

You might not be mixing hip hop, but just think hip-hop, because it's so stripped down and less is more, so when you've got less going on it often sounds bigger, fatter, louder, all that yeah, I was just about to say that about you preempted what I was going to say with regards to the less is more, and it's something that I've learned throughout the years of writing and producing, recording my own music, and it's something I was going through the other day.

Marc Matthews: 24:14

I was working on a song in particular I'm gonna be releasing soon and I was like it's just not. It's just not landing right, it's not landing the way I want. So I listened to the reference track and then I listened I was like, actually, in the intro they've just got, I can hear a kick drum, I can hear a vocal and I can hear some bass, and that was it, and I was like why am I trying to throw all this other stuff in there? Yeah, um, and in fact, if I take something out and I'm like, okay, now it's just opened up, you know. So I think it's. It's something that I've, having spoken to or engaged with the audience a lot for it through this podcast and I've said this a few times and I've said this independently as well on one-to-ones it's like maybe you just need to take some stuff out.

Mike Marsh: 24:50

You have to go through that. You have to go through that to realise it. And until you've actually you know that light bulb's come on in your head. It doesn't make sense. How can less be more? I need to throw everything and the kitchen sink in it, don't I? You know? Yeah, but yeah.

Marc Matthews: 25:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree. I totally agree. I was listening to, uh, some of the songs I put up a few years ago. And I'm listening, I'm not like why? Why have I made those soundtracks? Why is that in there? And and then I listen to the stuff I've got now and I'm like, okay, I can see why, I can see why it's.

Marc Matthews: 25:20

Then you've got to go through that learning process. Yeah, it's called experience. Yeah, most definitely, this is an interesting one, and I this is again I do regularly go off and say engines, and I've had other mastering engineers on the show and I've and in particular I can't remember the conversation I had, but they put forward an interesting point which was to not necessarily learn the art of mastery, but at least have an awareness of what's involved and maybe get some experience if you can, and and then work your way backwards. So let's say you're a mix engineer and then maybe spend some time in the realm of mastering so you know what you are submitting and what's potentially going to happen to it. Would you say that's a good sort of plan or pathway to follow?

Mike Marsh: 26:03

definitely because you're educating yourself, uh, on the wider process of putting music out, rather than just, you know, concentrating on what you do. You don't have to get your hands on and do it, but just an awareness thing is really good. I've been doing a few workshops with some of the students at Exeter College who were on the music technology and production course like my son was back in the day and one of the things I say to them primarily they're all into recording is yeah, get a handle on what mastering is and what you can do and what you can't do, you know, so that you will then avoid yourself saying, ah, they can fix that in the mastering, Because if you're aware of the restrictions, you're going to hopefully deliver a much better pre-mix product than you would do if you just went. Well, I can't do any more now, I'm burnt out on it. I'll let somebody else take over.

Marc Matthews: 27:07

Yeah, I would agree, and I was quite lucky when I was doing way back when, when I was doing my studies and I made the made the choice, I was like you know what, for this work experience, I'm going to go spend time with a mastering engineer.

Marc Matthews: 27:20

And I did that and it just just that week I spent there. It opened my eyes to thinking okay, now when I am mixing or I'm creating something, I can see where it's eventually going to go before it's then going to be out on digital platforms, whatever release is going to go through. Um, but what I I mean in the same breath, I do recall as well not enough time was spent focusing on it, I found. I mean that this was a while back, so it could well have changed now, and I can't make a sweeping statement on all courses, but I do remember with mine it was only a fraction, a tiny fraction, of the actual course itself, uh, where they touched on mastering yeah, that's a shame because, um, mastering is something which actually takes a while to get get a grip of it and, um, the main reason of that is you need to be.

Mike Marsh: 28:06

You need to be listening to lots and lots and lots of different mixes from different studios to educate yourself in your head about what sounds good and bad. Um, when I first started, uh, vinyl was the the biggest selling format. So, uh, not only did I have to learn how to operate the disc, cutting lathe, you're also finding your feet and your own confidence in what stuff sounds like what's good. What should I do to this? You know, you're it's that confidence, experience thing, and I reckon I reckon it probably is a good two to three years of being inundated with lots of different mixes from lots of different places before you feel comfortable to go.

Marc Matthews: 28:49

Okay, I can go straight to that, and and you're in that position where you instantly know what to do yeah, and I think also with that experience you also get the the knowledge and experience again to use the same word twice to know when actually I probably probably don't need to do a great deal in this exactly.

Mike Marsh: 29:07

Yeah, I'm not going to do something for the sake of doing it, if that makes sense, yeah, yeah and again, that comes with experience too, because sometimes as a new guy you're going to go well, I better do something. You know, otherwise they're going to think I'm just sitting around doing nothing. But that is a magic moment when you get that mix that is already pretty much nailed it, um, you don't need to be looking for things to fix, you know. Uh, it's very rare that it happens, but and I've still got my notebooks going back to 1988, so I can, I can do you like a total recall on analog notebooks. That's how geeky it is, um, but it's very rare. I've written in my notebook flat, and as in flat I mean not EQing anything, you know.

Marc Matthews: 29:54

Wow, that's quite a list. I was going to give away my age then. Well, I will, but I would have been two.

Mike Marsh: 30:00

Okay, well, I'm way older than you, so it doesn't matter.

Marc Matthews: 30:05

Yeah, amazing. This kind of moves on nicely to my next topic, and this is all around. Should the mixing and mastering engineer be the same person? So this is interesting. This goes back to what you mentioned earlier about the sort of the amateur mixers, and we've got producers and a lot of people doing everything themselves. So Many independent artists handle mixing and mastering. What are the pros, if any, and what are the cons of that particular workflow, would you say?

Mike Marsh: 30:36

OK. Well, the pros and the cons can almost be summarised in one sentence. Really, a mastering engineer or somebody else working on your music is the first time another set of ears outside of your environment has heard what you're doing when you're, when you're performing, mixing, recording and then trying to master all of it yourself, you, you lose complete perspective on what sounds good anymore, and I've worked with a lot of artists who've tried it themselves and they just end up chasing their tail, going round and round in circles because they don't know anymore. And I admire people who give it a go. But right now I work with a lot of artists who are quite capable of recording their own stuff and mixing their own stuff and probably mastering their own stuff if I'm honest, and probably mastering their own stuff if I'm honest. But they still send it to me because I'm that second set of ears outside of their comfort zone, with no.

Mike Marsh: 31:35

The other thing is you know, when you're working on something so closely, you've got this kind of inbuilt kind of attachment to the project, whereas if I hear it, you know I don't know anything that went into it. I don't know any of the problems. I don't know any of the problems I don't know any of the fallouts that have gone on along the way. I'm completely independent sonically, so that's a good thing about a mastering engineer, is? It's a new set of ears fresh to the table.

Marc Matthews: 32:04

Yeah, what are your thoughts and perspectives on the sort of AI mastering landscape?

Mike Marsh: 32:11

I'm very aware it's out there and of course, in a way, it's quite hurtful because I earn a living by doing it myself and doing it by ear. But you know, I'm very aware it's out there. I mean, there was Lando I think was one of the very first ones that came up and I've heard it's very mix dependent actually. So I've heard clients have sent me references of how they got it done on Landy, you know. So I've heard good things and I've heard bad things and I think the bottom line is AI and algorithms and all of that are still never going to be quite as good as the human is, especially when you've got a slightly ropey mix. If your mix is pretty good and the balance is right and the EQs totally are good, then an online AI mastering thing is going to have a fairly good crack, to be fair. But if you've got problems or frequency issues or stuff like that, then it's really going to struggle.

Marc Matthews: 33:11

Yeah, and you also don't have that sort of feedback loop either, do you? You don't have that relationship, that rapport with the mastering engineer as well, were they?

Mike Marsh: 33:18

About what's good or bad.

Marc Matthews: 33:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And that feedback and said, okay, well, I've done this this time, so next time you're working on this particular sort of style, the genre of music, maybe consider doing this in your mix, that way, exactly the mastering. I'm not going to have to make such um, not drastic, but such changes in that particular. In that particular maybe it's compression or or eq, for example. So you're not, you don't get that feedback loop. And also, sometimes, I guess as well, you, you're going to make create, are you going to make creative decisions you might do if you've got that relationship with the artist and saying, okay, well, maybe we'll do this because it's slightly outside the box in terms of what we would usually do with the conventional master, but you, let's say that that conversation you're never going to get with ai. That's the thing I mean. Maybe absolutely.

Mike Marsh: 34:01

Yeah, it is. But yeah, right now, and the whole of my career is has been based on on client interaction. Uh, it's it. Back in the, I used to get attended sessions all the time, so you used to have people come work with you. Often they just came along for the laugh, came along for the ride, but nowadays a lot more work is remote, but you still have either on the phone or a Zoom call or just even on an email. I still get established artists asking for feedback on what I thought about the mixes and what they might be able to do to improve. And because I've now, I guess, been doing it for so long, I feel like I'm quantified to say what I think rather than, like you know, sweeten up something that actually was a load of crap. But I'm just going to not say that because it might hurt their feelings. Now I'll hurt your feelings if it's warranted but in a nice way.

Rich Bosic: 35:00

Do you know what I?

Mike Marsh: 35:00

mean.

Marc Matthews: 35:01

It's so yeah.

Mike Marsh: 35:02

So, and trust me, we're all learning the whole time. You know I'm sat here as a vintage old age, not an old age pensioner. Yeah, I still feel like a teenager. I'm sat here as a vintage old age, not an old age pensioner, yet I still feel like a teenager but I still don't feel like I know it all. So every day at work is a brand new day, a new job.

Marc Matthews: 35:20

100%, I totally agree with that. I routinely learn something new every day, and I often learn things from the listeners as well. They send feedback or responses to something I've said or what's been said on the podcast, and I that's. That's good to me.

Rich Bosic: 35:33

So yeah, which is amazing.

Marc Matthews: 35:35

Uh, I realize that, mike, we're coming towards the end of our discussion here, so there's one, one quick question I want to throw your way. Is somebody listening to this has been inspired and they want to sort of get their teeth into mastering? Where would you say they should start?

Mike Marsh: 35:50

uh, I guess it depends on age. But if you're, if you're college, school, school, college age, then I reckon, um, your local kind of um, uni or tech college, that might offer a recording and a mastering course. Um, as a starting point, just to get your head around the technical side, there's a lot of, there's a lot of kind of electronics and technical stuff that's handy to know before you even start playing around with a digital workstation or whatever. So if you're a young person, you know, still in education, that would be a good route. It's really hard from then on to get your foot in the door as a tea boy, tea girl at a mastering studio, because times have changed, big studios have kind of all disappeared. It's very hard for for a person interested in wanting to be a mastering engineer to actually get in and sit on sessions.

Mike Marsh: 36:45

It really is so, but certainly I would say a college route if you, you know, if you're, uh, if you're still in education, that would be a good start. Um and um, you know, if you're into music at that young age, no doubt you're probably already making music as well. Um, so yeah, getting getting your head around, maybe logic or something like that, and and and teaching yourself how you might go about making music. Um is also a great start yeah, fantastic, excellent stuff, mike.

Marc Matthews: 37:19

Thank you very much. Um, it's been a pleasure chatting with you and, as I say, it's always a pleasure chatting with someone from the local area, which doesn't happen often, aside from if the audience listening. They'll know tim, who's been on the podcast a few times and he lives in watch it, so I think that is the closest. If my memory of 193 episodes go, I think you might be the closest. Actually you might be the closest person now to me where I'm based who's been on the podcast, which is amazing and it was so cool that I was randomly going for I say randomly, I go for a run every week, or but I was listening to master your mix and then listening to your episode and I was like what?

Marc Matthews: 37:52

I was just around the corner from me, yeah, which was fantastic. So, um, for the audience listening, maybe, uh could you share where they can find out more about you and, uh, what, what you're doing, what you're up to, or maybe even they want to work with you as well.

Mike Marsh: 38:08

Yeah, sure. So I guess the website is a good place to start, which is at wwwmikemarshmasteringcouk, the email address you can find from the website as well. I'm on the socials Facebook and Insta. I'm not kind of like on it 24-7. I dip in and out, but I have got a Facebook profile and I have got an Instagram profile Mike Marsh Mastering would be your search word there. So, yeah, and email is obviously the best place to get in touch initially. But, yeah, come and say hi or come and check out the profiles and see what we're up to.

Marc Matthews: 38:53

Fantastic. I'll put links in the episode audience listening, so you can find all of that there. Mike, it's been an absolute pleasure and I will catch up with you soon and enjoy the rest of the sun as well.

Mike Marsh: 39:07

We should probably end the podcast by saying see you on the beach.

Marc Matthews: 39:11

Yes, you know what we should do an episode on the beach.

Rich Bosic: 39:15

I'll tell you what I'd be well up for that.

Marc Matthews: 39:17

I'll be there. Fantastic, alright. Cheers, mike, I'll catch up with you soon.