#171: How to Balance Low-End in a Mix: Trusting Your Instincts with Mike Exeter

Ever wondered how to mix good low-end, how to balance low-end in a mix, which frequencies to cut when mixing, or even how should you EQ a high-hat? Join me for an inspiring conversation with legendary producer and engineer Mike Exeter, known for his iconic work with Black Sabbath and Judas Priest, in this must-listen episode of Inside the Mix.

Mike reveals the secrets to crafting a balanced, powerful mix with a rock-solid foundation:

• Mastering Low-End Frequencies: Learn how to balance the interplay between kick drum and bass to create a cohesive, impactful mix.
• Tools of the Trade: Explore visual mixing aids like Sonox Claro and FabFilter Pro Q3 to identify and resolve frequency conflicts.
• Reference and Genre Matching: Discover how reference tracks and frequency analysers fine-tune your mix to genre-specific standards.
• Drum Mixing Excellence: Dive into dynamic mic placement, phase alignment, and using multiple snare mics for fuller drum sounds.
• Striking the Balance: Uncover why less is often more when it comes to plugins and why strong arrangements make all the difference.

Whether you're tackling dense rock mixes or refining your EQ strategies, Mike's insights and decades of experience will transform your production workflow.

🎧 Don’t miss this episode packed with expert tips, real-world applications, and inspiration to elevate your craft!

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Chapters

• 0:00 Mastering the Low-End in Mixing
• 4:49 Visual Aids in Mixing Bass
• 16:48 Achieving Balanced Drum Mixes
• 28:33 Snare Mic Techniques and Drum Choices
• 39:41 Embracing Technology in Guitar Recording
• 48:33 Audience Connection and Feedback Encouragement

Transcript

Mike Exeter: 0:22

You could spend money thinking it's the next best thing. It's not. You know, buying a new set of paintbrushes isn't going to turn you into Picasso, you know, it just isn't. You've got to learn, You've got to. It's not because I'm anti-anything technology or anything. You know I use the stuff I use, but I would rather know why I'm doing something rather than just, like you know, I'll just blindly go out and buy this plugin. You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews.

Marc Matthews: 0:55

Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. I'm Mark Matthews, your host, musician, producer and mix and mastering engineer. You've come to the right place if you want to know more about your favorite synth music artists, music engineering and production, songwriting and the music industry. I've been writing, producing, mixing and mastering music for over 15 years and I want to share what I've learnt with you. Hello, folks, and welcome back to the Inside the Mix podcast.

Marc Matthews: 1:22

I am thrilled to welcome back today's guest, the legendary producer and engineer, mike Exeter. You may remember Mike from episode 68, way back when 68, I think at the time of recording this, that might well be two years where he shared his top tips for making a great mix, and if you haven't heard that episode yet, be sure to check it out for some invaluable insights into his mixing philosophy. We're going to dive a bit into that a bit more today. So he's best known for his work with iconic bands like black sabbath, priest and cradle of filth as well. Mike, thanks for joining me today. How are you? And welcome back, thank you.

Mike Exeter: 1:58

It's a pleasure to be here. Um, I'm all right, thank you. Yeah, I'm just thinking back to two years ago. I I hope I'm as good now as I was then, and I hope I have the same thoughts about everything as well, in case I contradict myself because that's never been known.

Marc Matthews: 2:13

That'd be interesting Hands in the air. I didn't go back and listen to the episode before this I should have done, but that would be interesting, much like most of your audience. Probably Probably, yeah, yeah, yeah, probably Probably, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. They'll be like I didn't know. Mike was on the podcast. When I look at the metrics, there is a point in time yeah, exactly when people start listening and downloading episodes.

Marc Matthews: 2:35

So if you have an audience listening. Do go check that. I know there are some because I've had conversations with listeners when they said it's one of their favorite episodes. So there is that.

Mike Exeter: 2:45

There is that I know it has been.

Marc Matthews: 2:48

See, bribery does work. Indeed, indeed, mike's career has spanned decades, producing and engineering for some of the biggest names in rock and metal, and expertise in crafting powerful low-end mixes has made him a go-to in the industry. And today we'll be focusing on key aspects of mixing, in particular, be discussing the low-end techniques, bass, frequencies and everything in between. So, mike, so let's start with the with the low-end side of things. One of the most difficult challenges, I think, that the audience listening encounter when it comes to mixing. It's often a question that I get asked do you have any videos or episodes, rather, on mixing low end and the air quotes mud that people mention? In your experience, what's the first thing you should focus on when balancing the low end in a mix?

Mike Exeter: 3:35

it's really tough actually. Um, it's. There's just no easy answer. It's totally situation dependent. Um.

Mike Exeter: 3:47

Um, there will be people who will say you need to um choose whether or not the kick drum sits above the bass or vice versa. Um, there's people who say you should side chain the bass off the kick drum. Um, it's sort of almost any and all of the above I may have mentioned it last time I tend to take the Andy Wallace approach, which is to focus on getting the kick and the snare sounding as big as possible. In a dense rock, what's going to become a dense rock mix, I would get the kick and the snare sounding as big as possible, sit the guitars in either side and then deal with the rest of it. Um, so I kind of set my stall out, I guess by having the the kick sounding fantastic, in my opinion. Um, and then, once I've got the girth of the guitars supporting that, then I I feel that um, the bass finds its own place.

Mike Exeter: 4:50

Um, I have had some complex conundrums of sorting out um, some of the some of the projects do tend a little bit more towards the giza butler approach of bass playing where it's. It's got to be um, it's got to be more melodic. It's got to play more of a lead bass kind of role. So you've got these aspects where the bass needs to be heard but it also needs to support. So, um, I, I, I find the tool that helps visualize because I do mentor people, I think the tool that helps visualize because I do mentor people, I think the tool that's helped me visualize sitting the bass right, has been something like either Sonox Claro or FabFilter Pro Q3, where you can actually have two instances sat. You can sit one on the kick drum and one on the um on the bass, and you can see where there's a build-up of resonances, because they kind of look at each other's frequency response. That can be quite interesting because you can. You can sort of dip out a little bit of something in the kick which is just below the fundamental of the bass, um, and push the bass and you can sort of do this opposite thing and you can, um, you can sort of make the two coexist. You're not trying to make anything disappear, because that would be horrible, but you can just sort of etch away a couple of db either way, and of course, a couple of db on one, one direction and the other. You know, on the other track you suddenly dealt with 4 db, a problem. So I don't think having visual aids hurts.

Mike Exeter: 6:37

Um, and again, probably repeating myself from two years ago, yeah, because I am on a loop um having references, but references like using Adapter AB where you can load in your references and you can actually again you can see a spectrogram of what's going on in their mixes against yours. Because I think we've got these tools at our disposal to help us navigate this, so why not use them? And I think we have a massive correlation, we have this reinforcement that goes on between visual and audible stimuli. So this goes to why I don't believe Atmos for music is particularly enjoyable, because you need the two things to reinforce each other. Atmos works brilliantly in a visual medium. I think Atmos in an audible medium.

Mike Exeter: 7:38

People have to point out what they've done, which takes away the reason for having done this amazing Atmos mix, because they're going look, look, it's appearing back there, whereas you're, you're sort of drawn in that direction by the visuals. So I think being able to when you're learning, when you're continuing to learn, as we all do, still um being able to visualize something and correlate that to oh, I wouldn't have said that was 90 hertz. Yeah, yeah, I would have put that higher because surely the fundamental of an ease Playing on a bass is 40. Yeah, surely is 80. That's the always actually 90 that's causing the issue. So it's all these things Just reinforcing visually what you're hearing, I think is really important. But then taking it to the other thing, it's using Using devices like a little radio and Auratones, hearing what the bass is doing, what the top end of the bass, what the top end of the kick drum's doing, making sure they coexist, and then the sub sort of takes care of itself.

Marc Matthews: 8:40

Really, yeah, there's a lot to unpack in what you said there, which is really interesting. I might have to listen to that again. Yeah, there's a lot of unpack in what you said there, which is really interesting. I might have to listen to that again.

Marc Matthews: 8:48

Yeah, there's a lot of I'm going to cough, there's a lot of good advice in there. It's interesting you mentioned there you start with, just to recap, the kick and the snare oftentimes and you get that balance going on there. Then you're moving the guitars around that and then you bring in the bass. But what you mentioned there about the visual aids is really interesting. So you've got pro q3 and I know isotope do something similar because I use that myself, isotope to much like you said there. You stick an instance of the isotope eq on the, the uh, the channel and then you can see where the frequencies are potentially conflicting or you get that resonance again. So, really interesting.

Marc Matthews: 9:20

And also about where you mentioned looking at the reference track and I use something called tdr prism which is a free frequency analyzer, much like you mentioned there, and then you can look at that low end and I was doing it just this week when I was moving into new territory with genres and I was thinking, okay, well, how is the low end response of this particular genre and what do I need to do to get something similar to it? So visual aids I'm definitely an advocate of, so I think it's great advice and I think because there is that, yeah, you see this on on sort of forums online and threads, and you'll see the classic archetypal response of use your ears. But that doesn't mean to say you cannot use visual aids to help you.

Mike Exeter: 9:59

Um, they're very, very useful yeah, absolutely, I mean, I wouldn't. Um, I think the frightening thing I think we all know it we've, we've, um, we've had graphs on EQs for decades now Um, I think one of my big things is to to to stick with the courage of my own convictions. I believe in what I have done. I trust in it. I stand by all the moves that I make, um, so I'm definitely not one to make a move and then look at a graph and go, oh, blimey, that looks wrong. Yeah, lots of people are. So you have to be wary, you have to go. Okay, I'm just going to listen to this now. I need to make sure that I'm not fooling myself. But ultimately, I think one of my pet peeves I'm still on this one. I think one of my pet peeves I'm still on this one we may have touched on it before which is the most destructive piece of technology ever the high-pass filter. Yes, yes, I do remember that will screw up, yeah, that'll screw up your bottom end.

Mike Exeter: 11:06

My big thing is if there's a dearth of music out there where, if you put it on a big system, it doesn't punch you in the gut. Now, it may sound brilliant on your laptop speakers and your earpods, airpods, but it doesn't punch you in the gut and I you've got to be able to enjoy the music. This is where if you do sort of jump genres and God try saying that Jump genres yeah, if you do do that and you go into a club, which obviously I'm far too old to go into now I'm not allowed in clubs, but if you go into a club and you hear the pounding bass, you feel that pounding bass I bet they still sound good on on on laptop speakers because people aren't frightened in that, in that environment to mix with bottom end. You've got to mix with bottom end there your speaker system will roll off what it can't produce. So don't worry about all this mud. That is apparently the antichrist of of mixing. Turn down the bass if you don't want it, but don't just get rid of it. You know, without consequence.

Mike Exeter: 12:15

Listen to what that filter is doing to you. Filters have a really strange effect on at that crossover point. You can put a filter on a certain frequency and you can put a low shelf on the same frequency. Match the crossover points and you can listen to the destructiveness of that filter. It does something weird. It'll turn a beautiful acoustic guitar into a nasal sounding guitar, whereas you turn down the bottom end on a shelf and it just reduces the bottom end. So you've got to do your listening and make your own decisions. But if you're struggling with bottom end, it's probably not because you've um, not filtered everything. I would say you've probably taken all the weight out of the track.

Marc Matthews: 12:53

Everything contributes to that solidity wise words, because what you mentioned there exactly is what I was researching the past few weeks with this, this move I'm making with this, with this particular track, and it was exactly that, and I sent the track over to a friend of mine to have a listen. He's like it's lacking, it needs extension down into the low end, because I was being too conservative. I wasn't rolling everything off, but I was just being too conservative. And then I realized, actually, if this is going to be played back in the club, you're going to have the song before it. Then my song comes in and it's just going to sound empty and it's just it's going to lack that impact. Um, so, yeah, 100.

Marc Matthews: 13:26

And I do recall that conversation about rolling off the low end because it has been, um, quite a mantra. Now going forward with regards to that, because I've had mixes sent across to me where I've seen these 48 um slope shelves where, where they rolled off anything below 30 hertz and I'm thinking, well, why have you done that? Like you cannot add what isn't there, like just no, yeah, it's crazy, but that might be. I suppose that could well be down to the, the, the dearth of advice in air quotes that you see online where people are advocating for these techniques I think, um, I mean I, I learn an awful lot from my mastering guy, a brilliant guy called Pete Hewitt-Dutton.

Mike Exeter: 14:08

He works out at the bakery in LA. He was a metropolis guy over in the UK and he moved out there and he and I have long, long conversations. Every time I send something to him, we have a conversation and ultimately I always learn something. But he's rolling, he's putting a filter on it at 15 hertz, he's literally cleaning up the bottom. He's very rarely taking any bass out of my mixes. If anything, he may be punching something up at about 800 for a bit of extra solidity. We're talking half dB here and there, but he's not doing a lot to it. He's looking at it, going no. He always says no, your mixes have got a lot of bass in them. He says, but there's nothing wrong with them, and that isn't him blowing smoke up my backside. He's saying, no, they're solid, I like what you do. Um, so I figure, if, if my mixes translate across everything, um, from in ears across those, things to big subby systems.

Mike Exeter: 15:10

I'm okay and I think there is a little bit too much um information coming from the right. You know the wrong places. It's the clickbaity stuff you've got to have the five things, five things to clean up the bass in your mix. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, funnily enough I've just done one of those, but it wasn't that.

Marc Matthews: 15:30

Yeah, yeah it is um, you do see that, and it's youtube. Is this the thumbnails on youtube where you see that? Isn't it? It's like the shot I like I am going to be hypocritical here because I know I've got thumbnails and I've got a shocked face and it'll say do xyz, so um, but you do see those we all do it, I.

Mike Exeter: 15:50

I think the important thing is that, if you can, if you can, research the problem with with any of this is you can. You can search for the answer you're looking for, because it's all out there. Every, every single opinion is out there. Youtube will help with the algorithms. It will find you the answer you're after.

Marc Matthews: 16:12

Yeah, yeah, I want to buy this.

Mike Exeter: 16:14

Oh, you're going to find the one that says it's the best thing ever. But I think if you can again have courage in your own convictions, get to know people who do a good job. There's great people all over. Ian shepherd in shepherd is awesome. Um, he's over in cambridge, good friend of mine. Send him something to master. It's worth spending, whatever his price is. I bet it's sub 100 quid to do a track. Get him to master a track for you and learn about what a mastering engineer thinks about what you're doing. The advice he gives will be absolutely incredible.

Marc Matthews: 16:49

Yeah, it's definitely an advocate of that, and it reminds me of when I had Dom Morley on the show. That's well over two years ago now and he does the mix consultancy, and I've used that service a handful of times now. Just purely, it's worth spending the money just to get that set of ears on it and the feedback he gives gives. Then you take that forward into the next mix and think, okay, well, I know, because that's my particular style, is the style of the, it's the way I'm mixing at the moment and it just works wonders. Like just just, it's worth spending that additional bit of money to save you time as well and it will just, yeah, it will expedite the process of you progressing as well. It's 100% worth doing. I'm definitely an advocate of that and I think I think well it's like so black black friday's coming, isn't it?

Mike Exeter: 17:34

it's like don't buy plugins, give dom some money, you know, honestly. It's like, seriously, you're, you're, yeah, john morley now he's great, um, but he, you, you could spend money thinking it's the next best thing. It's not. You know, buying a new set of paintbrushes isn't going to turn you into Picasso.

Marc Matthews: 17:54

Yes, wise words it just isn't.

Mike Exeter: 17:56

You've got to learn. It's not because I'm anti-anything technology or anything. You know I use the stuff I use, but I would rather know why I'm anti-anything technology or anything. You know I use the stuff I use, but I would rather know why I'm doing something rather than just, like you know, I'll just blindly go out and buy this plug-in. Yeah, because, yeah, they may be, we've all got loads of plug-ins, but that's because we've got a tool set and I'm not going to.

Mike Exeter: 18:24

I've spoken to a couple of developers recently and they're like oh, why aren't you using that plugin? I'm like well, a, it's unreliable and B, it's bloated, and C, it's got latency issues and you didn't put this feature in and this lot did. And I need speed. You know, and that's the point for me, it's the ability to choose the thing that you need to get the job done at the time. But 99 of the time I'm on massenberg, eq, massenberg compressor, um, and timeless three for delays.

Mike Exeter: 18:54

I haven't got the headspace to go through looking for all these clever things. Um, they all sound similar anyway. You know, you say don't you use? I'm on my high horse now, aren't I? People are like oh, don't you use any sound toys. I'm like no, yeah, oh yeah, but Echo Boy is brilliant. I mean, it's brilliant, but it can't do this. I set up my delays, I set them up from scratch every time, like in the old days. Yeah, I am, yeah, yeah, it's like you. Just what does the song need? If you just preset bash, you're not giving, giving it what the song needs. You're giving it an easy way to finding something that will do.

Marc Matthews: 19:37

Yes, wise words again. And I think, um, what you mentioned there about the you using and that's the key, isn't it? It's like, before you go and think, okay, well, this isn't working, this particular mix, I'm going to go buy this particular plugin because the marketing says it's going to fix X, y Z, whereas you probably, maybe I say probably you might need to go back and actually think, maybe I need to look at the fundamentals of compression first and know this compressor better before I think I need to buy this compressor because it's going to clean up whatever or improve whatever it is that I'm looking to do. So, yeah, another one that I mentioned on the podcast quite a lot, because you can have, like you say, you can have these plug-in libraries and just plug in after plug in after plug in. But, like you mentioned just now, you can have all these plug-ins, all these different paints, but it's not going to necessarily make you Picasso. And also, I think as well, I'm not going to get on a high horse myself here, but sometimes it's not even the mix.

Marc Matthews: 20:38

Oh you're not. Yeah, it could be the arrangement itself rather than the mix, but that's a different story altogether. A lot of the time it can be. Maybe it's not the actual mix itself, it could be the arrangement, but that in itself is, uh, you could probably get on a total rabbit hole with that. I think, um, yeah, yeah, um, I've got another question here for you. Uh, mike, this is only the second one and we're already 20 minutes in, so, um, this always happens on the podcast. Yeah, um, this is actually submitted by a listener, so a a shout out to Ed Fitzpatrick here.

Marc Matthews: 21:12

This is his pain point. He says when I'm mixing drums I might get the low end to sound okay, but my hi-hats either sound too thin or dominate too much. How do you balance the low end with higher frequencies, especially when dealing with elements like the kick drum and hats? Is there an approach that he could take, or considerations maybe?

Mike Exeter: 21:34

Yeah, okay, so I will. Well, I've said I will tend to make sure the kick and the snare are the dominating forces in the drum kit until everything else comes in. What I'll then do is make sure the cymbals, the overheads, are performing their function. So I'll make sure the cymbals are doing their thing of bringing a little bit of air into the drum kit. Um, when you, when you need to, on either side you're getting that excitement and hopefully the drummers played some really nice, tasteful cymbal work, um, the hi-hats will be in there, but the hi-hats will be within balance because hopefully the drummer knows how to balance his, his you know hands to get the cymbals to work properly. The hi-hats and the ride cymbals are generally on separate tracks to give me direction. So what I've tended to do over the last many years is I'll go for a wide it's kind of it's almost like an ortf ab kind of thing. But I'll go for a wide, spaced pair of cardioids equidistant from the kick and the snare around the axis of where they are. But I don't want to be doing an x y because that will bring too much in the center. So I don't want the snare to feature so much in the center because I've already got three microphones on the snare generally. So my my overheads will become a picture of the kit, but more focused on symbols. So I I know that if I still need to check phase or polarity for snares and kicks and toms and all that, but I've got this really nice top end record like symbol work. What that doesn't do is give me any direction on the hats and the rides and little splashes. So what I tend to do is I'll mic up the hats and the rides and when I'm recording I'll push them up into the the mix, going to the converter, and pan them on the return to where I feel that they're showing me where the actual instrument is. They're not meant to stick out.

Mike Exeter: 23:57

If you mute them, the hi-hats become indistinct. If you bring them back in, they focus and all I'll do is I'll make sure there's enough of the attack. Take out maybe the bow part of any cymbal that's a bit clangy. I call it the gong-like sound. So it's not the edge and it's not the bell, it's. That bit in between is where they get hit the hi-hats and they sound like really horrible mid-rangey, low, mid sound. I'll just scoop that out. I'll get a wide, um, a wide bell shape, curve and scoop it out a bit and I'll keep playing with that as I'm recording until I get to the point where all I can sense is that the hi-hat now has a position in my stereo field.

Mike Exeter: 24:51

I record enough of it that if I did have to push it I would, but I don't need to, and I do the same with things like the ride. So I create the individual microphone recordings to be part of the overall cymbal wash. So I've got that that thing where I'll do all of the shells first when I record and then I'll move on to overheads, hats, rides, rooms and stuff like that. Um, so I treat them all as kind of one instrument. Um, it all comes together with the rooms or the kit sound. But my main thing is to make the hats just feel like they're this thing that they take over from the right or they take over from the crashes they're handing off to each other. So, incredibly, my high hats will be really bright sounding, but they're not too loud and they're in a position in relation to the overheads where they're already leaking everywhere else in the room anyway. So they're just adding a little bit to it. It's a balanced thing overall.

Mike Exeter: 26:02

I would say, if you're worried about the kick to the hi-hats, get rid of the hi-hats, get the rest of the kit sounding good and then see what happens once you start to bring the high hats in. Is there something in the overheads where the high hats are too loud, in which case maybe you should notch something out in the overheads if you want to push up the high hat mic. It's it's so difficult without hearing it, but it's all about the various things all all contributing and it's a. It is a logarithmic thing. The. It's like a multiplication or it seems like it doesn't sound like addition. You put a, you put two mics together and suddenly it's like wow, that's really compounding the problem. So you do need to start pulling back my 1db here and there.

Mike Exeter: 26:48

You know, a 1db notch in a in an overhead can have a huge difference to to a sound, um, but I would say, if he's getting a chance to record, use condenser mics, because the problem I find is a lot of people relegate the hi-hat mic to 57s. Okay, um, and you, you get that 57 sound. Yeah, yeah, you, you know, it's like under snare mic. Under snare mic should always be a condenser for me. You're trying to pick up some fidelity. It's not a throwaway track, so get, make sure the recording's as good as possible. I mean, one of the one of the most amazing things we've got are things like toon track, superior drummer yes, like talk about well-recorded drums. It is listen to what they sound like and then try mixing them yeah, it's a fantastic piece of kit there.

Marc Matthews: 27:38

So it's fair to say there's quite a lot of eq.

Mike Exeter: 27:40

I say quite a lot of eq moves, but there's subtle eq moves going on to to sort of differentiate some of subtle yeah again, I suppose yeah, honestly, I mean god, if you saw some of my overheads, sometimes it'd be like well, there's nothing there, but it's like well, there is yeah but I don't need that amount of stuff. There are my symbols, just need to go, yeah, yeah yeah, you know, it's like the hi-hat just sounds like an aerosol spray for me you know what I agree with you on that?

Marc Matthews: 28:08

there's all these you know, yeah, yeah, I was thinking this the other day when I was mixing and I was thinking the hi-hat and I think, and I just I was, I was altering and altering, I was thinking it got to the point where it literally was just like that sort of sound. I was like, no, that sounds right, that's what I want. But when I looked at it I was like that just, it doesn't. Visually it doesn't make sense, but audibly it does. So I guess that's the whole. If it sounds good, it is good, isn't it mantra?

Mike Exeter: 28:32

this is it. I mean I, I remember um, nick watson. He's, he's a mastering engineer, um, fluid mastering um. I brought down a couple of tracks to him. It's got to be nearly nine, eight, nine years ago. He went how the hell do you get your cymbals to sit in that amount of guitars? I went, I eq the snot out of them and he went. But they sound great. I went yeah, because the guitars are taking up everything underneath, so of course they sound great. There's got to be room.

Mike Exeter: 29:02

I mean that people forget it's a mix. It's like it's. I'm not going to do that thing where you don't listen in solo but you don't listen in solo. I, I, I do loads of stuff in solo but ultimately, um, that's to check that I've pressed the right button, um, or I'm trying to find something and I'm like I'm not sure what that is that I'm chasing down, but ultimately it's. It's still about pulling out the faders and rebuilding the mix every now, again, now and again, and going, yeah, that's doing exactly what I think it should do. That's great, um, and it doesn't matter what you do to get there, as long as the end result sounds as natural or appropriate to the genre. Um, it's um, again, you listen to a superior drummer.

Mike Exeter: 29:48

Those drums sound incredible in as a programming thing. I program with them all the time doing my work with Tony, but I have them coming up multiple outputs. So I have aux inputs in Pro Tools being fed from the plug-in and I mix them like a drum kit while I'm programming, because as soon as you start getting iomi guitars in there, there's no way you can deal with the drums as they were. They sound fantastic. They're a brilliant recording of drums in a room. Um, it's a bit like the steven slate samples. They sound great in a mix, but they're so hyped if you actually listen to them most people would discount them. I can't program with slate because, um, because they're hideous to listen to, but I might put them in with the actual midi drums when I'm trying to get a hyped demo together. So it's like as you, as you progress, you've got to just listen to everything in context and um, and that's what helps you determine what the end result's going to be it's it's like you said, about the arrangement.

Mike Exeter: 30:58

It's all about arrangement, getting it to sound right in the arrangement. Um is a great learning thing. I'm really lucky to write songs with people like I write songs with because they've been doing it for so long. Um, and I've learned so much from that attention to detail and it starts there. It starts with that writing.

Marc Matthews: 31:20

Yeah, most definitely. I do have a question off um what you mentioned earlier. This this goes back to the beginning of what you were describing. There. You mentioned three snare mics. There's a bit of a tangent here, so you've got one at the top, one on the bottom.

Mike Exeter: 31:33

I've got two on the top 57 on top, two on the top. Okay, yeah.

Marc Matthews: 31:38

So where are the two on the top positioned Right? They're right next to each other.

Mike Exeter: 31:42

I haven't got it here. That's a shame. My assistant 3D printed me a brilliant little um um a thingy adapter, so I like um. I go between what the dynamic mic's going to be, depending on where I am um. It can be a m69, a 201 or a 57 or a audix i5. Um I.

Mike Exeter: 32:05

I bought and fell in love with a? Um a microphone called a beta 181. It's a side facing, looks like a little lollipop, looks like it's got a sure beta 57 body, but when you get it in person it's like a little shrunken version. Um. This the whole thing is about 10 centimeters long. It's a side facing condenser and it's one of the best snare mics I've ever come across, because I used to stick the KM 84 next to 57. I like what a condenser, a small diaphragm condenser, does on a snare it just opens up the whole capture. I'll put the 57 or the dynamic or whatever next to it and I closely Phase align them. I actually use a little radial phaser unit that does it in the analog domain, so it literally just phase aligns them. It's not a time thing, it's actually absolute phase and I tend to favor the 181 most of the time. It's awesome.

Mike Exeter: 33:08

I did try someone else's microphone last Christmasmas. Um, I won't mention who they are, but it's. It's touted as the next big thing and it it was okay, but it was about as useful to me as the the um 421 is on toms. It's too big, you can't get it into the place you want and it didn't have any sonic benefits over the 181. So to me it's like um, it's horses for courses. Um, it all comes down to a great snare and the appropriate snare for the actual job as well.

Mike Exeter: 33:51

I did a session recently. I had Carl Brazil who plays with Robbie Williams and Blunt and various huge. He's probably one of the top session players in the UK. He turns up with about 14 snare drums. Because, why not? Because it's like, what do we reckon about this track? Um, this one's got a bit more of that. Do you think that'll work and the way it responds for him? So it does come down to that level. Now listeners may say, oh, you know well, that's all right for you, you got him coming along doing that, but it'll stop you from maybe having two choices and that again comes down to that snare drum mic thing as well. It's like by having two snares on the top. You can change the sonic characteristics between verse and chorus. You can do verse pre chorus, chorus. You know, you got. You got all these choices, um, and, and. To go back to the three mics underneath, it's usually the KM84 because it needs to be a condenser and real attention to phase.

Marc Matthews: 34:59

That was going to be my question, just to make sure that you're not losing anything. Yeah yeah, most definitely. 14 snares, that's quite an impression. I mean, that's a boot full of snares. I'm not a drummer, I'm a guitarist, but my drummer when I was in the band he would have loved to have had he was.

Marc Matthews: 35:17

He's a proper dream theater fan, so you can imagine his drum kit, what that would have been like and he would have absolutely loved to have 14 snares um and to tinker with yeah, I mean we only used two, but they were there.

Mike Exeter: 35:31

I mean, you see, for me it's like for cutting through dense guitars. I don't think anything beats um like a copper or a bell brass. I don't think wooden snares really cut through guitars, not at the level when you've got thickness. But again, I'm proved wrong by certain snared yeah. Yeah. But I think if you but back in the real world where we're all kind of having to also do sessions with people who haven't got access to all that and endorsements, um, I got myself a tamar sl, slp I think it is.

Mike Exeter: 36:10

I got a stainless and it's so different to the wooden one that my mates got at the studio I use a lot that um that we've now got a choice of two and that's kind of enough choice for some people they'll go oh no, I kind of prefer that. That's. That's more this style um, whereas if you've only got one, you'll never know whether or not A would be better than B, and I think just by having a couple of choices you don't option yourself to death. You know, when I'm talking with Carl we're like literally going into OK, well, if this was to happen in this part, then that's going to get lost and most of us would just EQ it. But the fact that he can then EQ something else out, he's at the top of his game, yeah, yeah. But but the fact that he can then get eat something else out, he's at the top of his game, yeah, yeah.

Mike Exeter: 36:53

But it doesn't hurt to learn from the top oh most definitely we can all aspire to take that attention to detail yeah, most definitely but he is fucking boring with his snares when you said 14, I was just like wow I can imagine that conversation uh

Mike Exeter: 37:09

yeah, yeah well, do you know what it's like? You get to that point in the session where he's. It's like you're about to go for a take and suddenly you'll go what about this snare? And it's like, oh christ's sake, yeah, we decided that 20 minutes ago. Can you just play the part?

Marc Matthews: 37:24

yeah, yeah, I could imagine um, but he's brilliant, yeah, yeah yeah, um, this is.

Marc Matthews: 37:30

We're coming towards the end now, but I do have one question and and this is totally off-piste here and this is off- the top of my head here because, being a guitarist and I was of the when I was gigging and whatnot, I'd have the 6505 on top of a Mesa cabinet proper metal, as it were. But since I'm now solely in the studio, yeah, exactly, I loved it. It was fantastic. Clean tone was shit, but apart from that it was proper, proper, proper, loud man. It was good stuff we had that at an angle uh angle powerball left and right um yeah it was, it was loud.

Marc Matthews: 38:02

We we played in drop b as well, so it was it was. Uh, yeah, it was. It was heavy, but it was good melodic metal, it was good fun. Um, but was was it in tune, though, in drop beat? You know what? I remember playing one gig in Belgium and I was like, and I was just like I'm going to try some slightly lighter strings this time, and I did that and it was just totally out.

Mike Exeter: 38:22

It was totally out. I don't know why I did it.

Marc Matthews: 38:25

It was one of those ones where I was like, mate, can I use your backup guitar? My guitar's fucked. No, yeah, and for the rest of the tour I was using this, uh, this backup guitar, which, incidentally, sounded all right. It had emgs in it, it did all right. But what my question was gonna be there you go is um you mentioned that you're, you're you're tracking with tony, for example, emulations, guitar emulations.

Marc Matthews: 38:51

I've I've been using Neural DSP stuff, which is pretty good. What are your thoughts? Are you still doing like a hybrid approach? Are you using emulations? Are you sort of still I can't lie anymore.

Mike Exeter: 39:05

The guitar world has literally just come out in the last two days and one of the big highlights and I must plug for this one there's a full front page Tony article and I've got three pages in there, apparently, but Tony's told the world he's using a Kemper.

Marc Matthews: 39:24

I was going to ask has he tried the Kemper yet or is he using it?

Mike Exeter: 39:30

we have actually been using a Kemper we've been using one since the pandemic, but we do use amps as well but what the kemper is allowing us to do is quickly move between sounds. So I captured, I think, his best amp ever um, which, again I talk, it's the golden goose for me is TI-100, which was the one that was made his custom amp. I think it came out in 2012. Certainly we were using it in 2012. I think it was 2011 to 2014. He used it and this thing was basically an evolution of the Soldano to the eddie van halen mark 3 to the ti 100. It was it's. This amp is insanely good um. So I did a um, I did some profiles of that, but I also paired it with the right speaker caps as well, because the best sound we had out of it was not the 4x12 that came with it and that wasn't for any reason other than I think I was too lazy to shift the 4x12 when his custom one came out, so I left the eddie Van Halen one in there and that just stuck. So I've been using a lot of that, and the nice thing about the Kemper is you can load IRs into it, as of a few RISs ago and speaker responses are a massive part of the sound. Um.

Mike Exeter: 41:12

So so for me, um, the way the reason we use the camper is I've got him a sound which works for him. I can move incredibly quickly because I can have it set up on with the um the editor on my computer and give him different sounds. So he'll go, oh, just what about trying this on this part? Or I'll say you know, maybe if we went for a clean tone here and we try that, I can dial him up a sound and he doesn't have to do anything. He can just try a part and then I can bang back into the main riff sound and we can. We can actually create our songs without having to worry about recalling a, an amp setup or something.

Mike Exeter: 41:52

Now, afterwards I may go back and re-amp and it'll be an, a re-amp appropriate to the riff, but it's very, very, um, very much, um, a tool that gets a job done, um, and to be honest, you know, when we, when we do shootouts from time to time, he'd never use one live. If he was going out live, it'd be straight out. I mean, he said that he did last year for the ballet, but before that we did a Hollywood Vampires show and he just used a TL100 with a 4x12, and it blew someone else's rig off the stage and it was only on four. Amazing, but it's um. But, but for the, for the studio, it's what he responds to.

Mike Exeter: 42:44

Um, now, I've already caught a load of flack for something recently which said it all sounded digital and um, horrible, and blah, blah, blah. So now the fact he's gone public and said it's um, it's a kemper. I'm probably never work again. But to be honest, all of these things work brilliantly. They're they're tools to do the job. I use two notes stuff um, for when we're using real amps. Um, I use the neural dsp plugins. Um, I haven't used a quad cortex yet because I haven't needed to, but they're all brilliant, they're excellent and it's what gets the job done.

Marc Matthews: 43:20

Agreed, I use the Neural stuff and I think they're fantastic. The Neural DSP emulations. I think I've got the Petrucci one, if I remember rightly. I think that's the one I've got, or I might have had the Gagira. Yeah, that's awesome. I might have had the Gagira one, I can't remember.

Mike Exeter: 43:35

Either way they sound great, they're all really good. I tend to fire up one of the ones like the 14 or one of the sort of the real basic ones and I'll just dial that in because it's like, well, that's really cool, I like that. But sometimes I'll put it through the Two Notes Genome cabs, because it's like I just want a bit more control over what cabs I use.

Marc Matthews: 43:56

Yeah yeah, it's like use everything Flexibility, isn't it? It's like you say, if you're in the studio, you're songwriting or whatnot, just being able to just and then switch to a different and flick between sounds, sounds and just try stuff out. It's a lot easier than whipping back into the the room and then moving the the microphone about or swiping out cabs and heads and whatnot, um, which I've done in the past.

Mike Exeter: 44:20

so well, I think, also to not labor the point. It's like the um, the, the sound that the guitarist is playing too yeah doesn't always suit what the track needs.

Mike Exeter: 44:31

So, but if you can give them something that's inspiring, yeah, if you've got a di and they've performed it well, you can take it back and you can take the essence of what they've done and you can just tweak it a little bit to make it work and that's. That's really good. I don't do it a lot. Most of the time I'll be doing it because we started a. Most of the time I'll be doing it because we started a track a couple of years ago and we may go revisit for something and the guitar sounds different or something, or the you know, we're not sure where we were. So I'll just re-amp the whole track, I'll get it close and I'll eq the di. But there's very, there's very, very many reasons for um for using that technology. It works, he loves it and he's. At no point has he ever said oh, no, no, no, I don't like that, I can't. That sounds really digital. Yeah, it doesn't.

Marc Matthews: 45:23

I think that's the thing when you see comments and stuff on various things that you put online. I think some people just like to have a bit of an axe to grind, I find sometimes. But I can get my soapbox with that, you know, but yeah.

Mike Exeter: 45:35

Oh, I ignore it, I'm not on socials much anymore.

Marc Matthews: 45:38

Yeah, yeah, but when is that episode of Guitar World coming? This episode is going to be going live in December, so the audience will be listening to this in December.

Mike Exeter: 45:48

Yeah, so it's the as of November. The 6th Guitar World magazine came out this week, right. I don't know if you can get it on the on the shelves. I've been to three WH Smiths and can't find it anywhere. Really.

Marc Matthews: 46:05

Guitar World. I'm amazed at that Total Guitar. You still get that. I'm assuming you can still get Total Guitar hasn't that just shut down has it.

Mike Exeter: 46:11

No, I'm assuming you can still get Total Guitar, hasn't that just shut down? Has?

Marc Matthews: 46:14

it. No, oh, that was my Bible when I was learning to play the guitar in my teens. Oh, the amount of Pantera riffs I got out of that.

Mike Exeter: 46:20

Oh, of course.

Marc Matthews: 46:22

Yeah.

Mike Exeter: 46:23

No, I think. Yeah, I'm hoping I'll get a physical copy of it.

Marc Matthews: 46:26

I've seen the.

Mike Exeter: 46:27

PDF. So that's good. Yeah, cool yeah, but it's a really interesting article. It's quite funny what, listening to him giving away some of the secrets well, they're not really secrets, but I'm like blimey.

Marc Matthews: 46:42

Well, yeah, yeah, we're gonna get verified. Yeah, that might be the. If I find it, I'll buy it and it'll be the first magazine I think I bought in a very long time.

Mike Exeter: 46:49

But mike, it's.

Marc Matthews: 46:50

Uh, it's been a pleasure having you back on the podcast. It's flown by it's flown to me mate.

Mike Exeter: 46:55

Really good.

Marc Matthews: 46:55

Yeah, I mean for anybody who wants to learn a bit more about what you're up to, what you're doing. You said you're not on socials much, but is there anything else you want to plug while you're here?

Mike Exeter: 47:13

No, I am on the socials. Um, there's not much activity. Um, I yeah, I kind of instagram's probably the one that, um, that will will have any activity, a flurry, I might even put up a picture of the guitar world thing. Um, I've got a website, mikexetercom. Um I am still working on um bringing production mentor to to life, um, which will be a uh kind of a mix of the master style thing, but kind of an in-person learning how to record and stuff. Um, but um, yeah, I mean pretty much, um, yeah, mikeextercom fantastic stuff.

Mike Exeter: 47:46

I'll put that link in the episode I better update it now yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah uh, I'll put a picture of me as a four year old, yeah.

Marc Matthews: 47:57

I'll put a link to that in the episode notes and audience listening If you haven't done already I mentioned this at the beginning go back and listen to episode 68 as well, and you'll probably listen to that and my delivery is probably totally different to what it is now. When I go back and listen to the older episodes it's quite interesting to see the way the podcast is delivered. So it's always, especially when I go back to like the first tens. I bet I've only sworn twice.

Mike Exeter: 48:22

I bet last time it was a complete full of it. I've really toned myself down. Yeah, this is toned down Amazing.

Marc Matthews: 48:34

Mike, it's been an absolute pleasure having you back on and I know the audience is going to love listening to this. It's been great. And um again, we'll do round three at some point in, maybe in a couple years or whatever. I think that's what it is. It seems to be every two years when I get people back on, probably yeah yeah, which is absolutely crazy. That'd be five years of the podcast, then it's already been out three and a half.

Mike Exeter: 48:51

Wow, yeah yeah, that's really good though. Yeah, cheers man. It's yeah three and a half years.

Marc Matthews: 48:57

It'll be four years in February 2025, which is quite a feat, I think. So exciting times Either way. Either way, anyway, I'll leave you to enjoy the rest of your evening and I'll catch up with you soon. Folks, before you go, I want to hear from you. I want to know your favourite episode of the Inside the Mix podcast. Alternatively, you could just review this episode.

Marc Matthews: 49:20

Click the SpeakPipe link in the episode description and you can record an audio message detailing your favourite episode and why, and also give yourself a shout out. All you need is your mobile phone. You don't need a SpeakPipe account. You don't need to download an app. It's just like sending me an audio message via WhatsApp or whatever messaging platform you use. As soon as I get your audio, you will be entered in that month's draw to win a Starbucks coffee voucher, and if you don't like coffee, just give it to someone else and pretend that you bought it for them. All you need to do is click that speak pipe link and send me an audio message reviewing this episode or a previous episode and give yourself a shout out.