Music Production Podcast for DIY Music Producers and Artists | Inside The Mix
If you're searching for answers on topics such as: what is mixing in music, how I can learn to mix music, how to start music production, how can I get better at music production, what is music production, or maybe how to get into the music industry or even just how to release music. Either way, you’re my kind of person and there's something in this podcast for you!
I'm Marc Matthews and I host the Inside The Mix Podcast. It's the ultimate serial podcast for music production and mixing enthusiasts. Say goodbye to generic interviews and tutorials, because I'm taking things to the next level. Join me as I feature listeners in round table music critiques and offer exclusive one-to-one coaching sessions to kickstart your music production and mixing journey. Get ready for cutting-edge music production tutorials and insightful interviews with Grammy Award-winning audio professionals like Dom Morley (Adele) and Mike Exeter (Black Sabbath). If you're passionate about music production and mixing like me, Inside The Mix is the podcast you can't afford to miss!
Start with this audience-favourite episode: #175: What's the Secret to Mixing Without Muddiness? Achieving Clarity and Dynamics in a Mix
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Music Production Podcast for DIY Music Producers and Artists | Inside The Mix
#102: Demystifying the Music Industry: An Insight into Music Mastering with Mike Indovina
If you are looking for audio mastering tips on the role of a mastering engineer, essential tools for music mixing and mastering, and understanding EQ and reference tracks. Then check out EP 102 of the Inside The Mix podcast.
Have you ever had a burning question about the complexities of the music industry and audio engineering? Well, wonder no more. This episode features my guest, Mike Indovina of the Master Your Mix podcast, an expert recording, mixing, and mastering engineer who brings two decades of hard-earned wisdom to the table. We dive into the guts of networking, mastering, and portfolio building in audio engineering as Mike gives us the lowdown on the evolving art of networking, and the importance of balancing self-promotion with genuine music appreciation.
Delving deeper into the audio engineering sphere, we pull apart the often misunderstood process of mastering. Mike expertly breaks down the two parts of mastering: preparing a record for distribution and finessing the master, pouring light on the common myths that surround it. Want to know what red flags professionals look for in a project, or where to start on your mastering journey? We’ve got that covered. Mike's insights provide the clarity you've been seeking.
Brace yourself for an exploration of tools for music production and mastering. We talk about how understanding EQ and using reference tracks can make a difference, regardless of whether you're an established pro or a DIY mastering rookie. Hear Mike's unique journey from basement recording to owning his space and how the pandemic has changed his work routine. From the significance of consistency in mastering to the nuances of the frequency spectrum, this episode is a goldmine of information for anyone fascinated by audio engineering. Prepare to have your horizons broadened and your questions answered.
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Hey, inside the Mix podcast fans. This is Jay Gilbert from your Morning Coffee podcast and newsletter where you can stay on top of the new music business. At yourmorningcoffee you are listening to the Inside the Mix podcast. Here's your host, mark Matthews. Take it away, mark.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. I'm Mark Matthews, your host, musician, producer and mix and mastering engineer. You've come to the right place if you want to know more about your favorite synth music artists, music engineering and production, songwriting and the music industry. I've been writing, producing, mixing and mastering music for over 15 years and I want to share what I've learned with you. Hello, folks, and welcome back to the Inside the Mix podcast. If you are a new listener, please do hit that subscribe button and if you are a returning listener, as always, a huge welcome back. So in this episode, I am joined by Mike Indovina of the Master your Mix podcast, and it's a fantastic discussion that we have and you're going to get loads out of this episode. So to begin with, we start at what Mike wish he knew now that he knew when he started 20 years ago, or notably what he would like to change, and we discussed networking and how that has changed over the last 20 years. Then we look at freelancing versus working as an intern and how those two have their place and which one would be the preferred choice. Then we look at and discuss how creating a portfolio of work can help you versus actually working as an intern. Then we discuss mastering and, in particular, the myths and misconceptions surrounding mastering, and then we look at the two different parts of mastering. So that's behind the scenes, getting a record ready for distribution and actually finessing a master itself. Then we look at client and project red flags and what a mastering engineer would look out for. We also discuss where to begin with mastering. So where should you start? What is the most important topic of mastering that you should start with if you are new to mastering and you want to get into that particular discipline? So, folks, it's a fantastic episode. I'm not going to waffle on too much, but what I do want to make you aware of is my five essential free mastering plugins guide, available at synthmusicmasteringcom forward slash podcast.
Speaker 2:Let's dive into the episode. Hey, folks, in this episode I'm very excited to welcome our guest today, mike Indovina. So Mike is a recording, mixing and mastering engineer who has worked with hundreds of artists in various genres, including punk rock, pop, hip hop and more, and with over 20 years of studio experience, he's gained a reputation as an engineer with sharp attention to detail. He's also an author of a number one Amazon bestselling book, the Mixing Mindset the step by step formula for creating professional rock mixes from your home studio. I'll put a link to that in the podcast notes. Mike, thank you for joining me today. How are you? Thanks for having me, mark, I'm doing well, fantastic stuff. So for the audience listening, I sort of made contact with Mike as I had been listening to the Master your Mix podcast and I reached out to Mike because, being a music podcast, it'd be great to have another music podcast on the podcast itself. I don't know how many times I could say podcast in one sentence, but I think I did about three or four.
Speaker 3:There it's a bit of a tongue twister.
Speaker 2:It is, isn't it? Yeah? And another great thing about your podcast is I've actually had guests from your podcast on this one. I've been listening to Nick from Episode 98. I discovered her on your podcast, Daughterboard Audio, and reached out to her.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, fantastic. It's such a good episode and the audience loved it as well. So, obviously, the audience listening, check out and listen to this one first, but then do go listen to Episode 98 and also the episode on the Master, your Mix podcast as well. Yeah, yeah, it's great to have you on board. As I say, I think this is probably the first time I've interviewed another podcast, a music podcast that is. So this is going to be great. I thought it would be great if we just start with your journeys and mix engineer. So you've been doing it for over 20 years. I think one key question would be what is the one thing you know now that you wish you knew 20 years ago when you started?
Speaker 3:It's a good question. I mean, looking back at my career, I think the biggest thing that I would say that if I could change anything maybe this is a better way of answering that question is like if I could change anything. The only thing I wish I did better when I was younger is get smarter at networking. To be honest, it's funny. So I played in bands all my life and I hustled really hard with my bands and I was very determined to make my bands get signed or whatever and I would hustle my ass off and I had no shame to embarrass myself promoting my band.
Speaker 3:But for whatever reason, when it came to promoting the studio side of things for me, I was a little more reserved about that and I think it was just because it was just me. I didn't have like four other guys in my band who could also do some of the work for me. So to some degree I was a little shy about that getting started with this and I very quickly realized as the years went by maybe not quickly, but as years went by there was all these bands that my band used to play with that went on to have really great success and stuff and I kind of kicked myself. I was like man, we were always tight with these other bands. We play shows with them all the time, see them very, very frequently.
Speaker 3:It's like I should have been using that opportunity to just get better at being a friend with people and being top of mind at all times and letting them know that I had this other aside from being in a band, that I had this other passion and this other thing that I was working on in the background, because who knows what could have happened right Maybe I could have worked with some bigger bands very earlier on in my career, something like that. But yeah, so definitely I think for anyone getting into this industry, it's like networking is definitely a big thing and I just wish I had been better at it and not as shy about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, networking is huge, isn't it? And I know exactly what you mean Running a podcast as well. A lot of that, a lot of getting the podcast out there, as you probably well know, is networking and speaking to individuals, because there's only a certain amount you can do or money you want to plow into sort of online advertising. But networking is huge. So you mentioned that. Obviously you've been sort of 20 years. How do you think it's changed? So I remember when I was in a band and we would network, we'd meet and chat with other bands and then we share each other's music as you do, and that's still pretty much the same now. I think a lot of it. But do you think networking? I suppose social media makes it easier now with the short preps of it.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I feel like my bands were like pre-internet. You know it makes me feel super old thinking about it, but and funny enough. So I had one band that you know it was kind of my main band for years and we had a deal with Universal and we did really well for being this small Canadian band and, as of last week, there was nothing on the internet about us. It was just like we existed pre-YouTube and stuff like that. And then my guitar player just last week happened to find this box of these eight millimeter home films that someone was apparently filming us this entire time. So now we have this big back catalog of all these videos and stuff. So it's cool to see all that and like we're going to get all that uploaded. But anyway, that's just a big aside. But yeah, definitely, social media has made it a lot easier to connect with people, right Like back in the day it used to be that you had to just you book shows and you just email people and you just like all you did was just like hang out at shows, you know, even if you weren't playing, you just you went everywhere and you just got to know people and, like you know, you'd kind of see the same faces at shows and you, you know, hopefully strike up a conversation with those people and maybe that brought you in, got you another show or whatever, right? So there was a lot of that and there was like also like a little bit of like internet stuff where if you looked in the right places you'd find like the forums where you know there'd be bands looking for people to connect with or shows or promoters or whatever. So there was definitely that and I think social media has now made it a lot more accessible, a lot easier to find those people and now you can literally look up like you know some label and look up like a and r with that label name and you'll find whoever that a and a in our person is. You know, it's a lot easier to like find out who the people in control are and, you know, still, take the same approach, you know, just email them, write them, whatever, yeah, friend them, right.
Speaker 3:So I definitely think that's part of it. I think people are going to at least where I live. Like I feel like shows aren't as Frequent as they used to be, or at least like they're getting smaller, or maybe just because I'm older now, like there's like a different vibe to the crowd, so where it's like you know we're playing bar shows, where it's like 19 plus or whatever, and, like you know, people are there to drink, not necessarily like be there for the music, so I Don't know, it's like you just have to kind of like, after you do it enough times, you kind of see the same familiar faces and then then you kind of get to know like, oh, that's who that person is, or you know, yeah, I don't know. I think like having an old-school approach to, to marketing and to networking is still very, very valid, you know. But yeah, also, if you understand the social media side of things too, then it gives you another chance to promote yourself easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. It's very interesting, Isn't it? Because what you say about social media, because I remember when I started the podcast and I released my music and when I was In a heavy metal band, as the audience knows, I pretty much say every episode I think, uh, yeah, yeah, I was in it for about eight or nine years and I remember we used to do the social media thing and emailing, and it's only recently that I've gone back to focusing on actual Jenna, creating a mailing list and like generating and Building that mailing list, rather than then building followers on social media. So it's very interesting how yeah, how networking changes over time.
Speaker 2:So, with regards to that network, I mean I don't want to hang around on it too long, but yeah, do you think it's different? I suppose it would be different networking as a band or as a sort of audio engineer. Do you take it? Do you think you would take you take a different approach? Would you still go to a gig and approach artists as an audio engineer with, like, hey, I mean you won't be as blaze saying like, let me mix your record, but some people do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know, I know, I Think it's like I think, no matter what you just have to, nobody wants that like that slimy salesman kind of thing. Right, we're like it's like hey, like, give me your money, I want to work with you. You know it's like that doesn't ever work well for anyone. So I think it's just like genuine, like if you just come from it as a genuine person and you know you just people like compliments to you know it's like, hey, great show. Like you guys are awesome. Like you know when can I see you next? Or you know like you just kind of like Maybe that's all you need to do to just like show someone that you care about their music enough and you want to see them again and then maybe see them at that next show. And it's like hey, like, yeah, I saw you guys at that last show. You know like can't wait to see you in tonight, whatever, and then you can maybe strike up a longer conversation. You know like sometimes you have to play that long game, but at some point you do have to. You do you do have to say like, okay, like, yeah, I am. If you ever need help, I'm a recording engineer. Like you know I can help you out. Yeah, you know, let them.
Speaker 3:I think I think the important thing with networking is you have to let people know what you do but not be like pushy about like give me your money or like that kind of thing, right?
Speaker 3:Because if people know what you do, then Sometimes they'll reach out to you when you least expect it, because they, you're, they have that in the back of their mind, that oh yeah, like Mike is an audio engineer or Mark's an engineer as well, like he can record my band, you know. So, yeah, there's been lots of gigs where I've had that kind of thing happen, where I don't know where someone called me because, like I told them I did something years ago and when the time was right, they remembered me, right, so, yeah, it's just, it's just like Just meet as many people as you can. You meet a lot of friends along the way, which is really cool, and and then, yeah, eventually you know good things can like work can happen, right, and then from there that creates its own snowball. As you build your portfolio and as you start to Do you work for one local band, then the next local band hears about it and then it kind of creates that snowball from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, excellent. Yeah, it's kind of I think I heard it on another podcast what someone said I don't know if it's the right term it like friending them into submission. Submission might be the wrong word to use, but I like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're kind of doing that and I think it's the best way to do it. And I mean, I don't know about you, but I frequently get people messaging me on social media offering to do xyz for me. It's just straight off the bat saying I'll create this for you, create that for you, and I'm thinking you haven't even, like, shown any interest in what I do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I don't know if you've seen the podcast, but I've seen it on the internet. It's like a canned message where you just know.
Speaker 2:It's like sometimes they sometimes they don't even fill in their own blanks and it's like, hey, first name, yeah, exactly, I get it a lot when they put my. I suppose it's easy to do because technically I do have like a first name for a last name or put they'll put it around the wrong way. But I always respond with a podcast now and they say, oh, your podcast is great, I've been listening to it. I was like, oh, what's your favorite episode? And like, what was the favorite topic in it? I'm which I don't know might be quite mean, but then again, if you're gonna send these emails out, you're gonna, you're gonna get it. I suppose this, this kind of, segues nicely on to my next question. So I was listening to the latest episode. So today is July the 30th for the audience listening of the master you mix podcast and it features Dean. I'm gonna try and pronounce it correctly. Had you Chris to? Yeah, I believe that's.
Speaker 3:I.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was really interesting. Actually you were discussing freelance portfolios versus the studio runner, internship and internship, and I thought it was a really cool conversation. So you mentioned there about networking and building a portfolio. Do you tell our audience what you think would be sort of your advised route in modern audio engineering? Do you think freelance, or? I suppose each one has its place, but which one would you be an advocate of?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think each has its own place and I think that, like the traditional way of building your way up the Studio ladder, it's becoming harder and harder to do it because these big studios are starting to close down and there are just Fewer opportunities there for that kind of stuff, right. But then one thing that I learned very early on in my career was that, like I never worked at like a big studio you know, I was never like one of the biggest studios in Canada or anything like that, like that but like I worked for some pretty mid-level studios and One of the things that I caught on to pretty early at a lot of these places was that they were typically owned by an audio engineer themselves and I kind of like, you know, I would start at these places sometimes as like a runner or intern, whatever, and I would work my way up. But I kind of very quickly realized, like that's as far as I can go I can. I'll never be the head engineer of the studio, because the head engineer owns this place, you know, and like Whenever there's a bigger band coming through, they're gonna be the one that takes it, because they, they want that credit for themselves, right, and I at least at least this is from my experience from the studios I was working at I kind of caught that and I realized like there was just like there was this limit as for how, how high I can go in the in the studio company rank, and they were also in charge of like my money and, like you know, they would tell me how much money I was gonna make and this and that, and so like I felt very restricted that way.
Speaker 3:And so that's kind of when I started to like go the freelance route, because I realized like okay, like I, if at the end of the day, all I'm trying to do here is like build up a portfolio To like show that I'm skilled with this stuff, then like I can do that. You know, I'll find local bands, I'll start building up that portfolio and At that point, like there's no one to tell me what gigs I can and can't take and or how much money I can earn, and so it kind of just allowed a lot more flexibility for me and it gave me to, like you know, I was now on my own schedule, so like I could take on different gigs. I could do live sound, I could do studio work, you know, kind of.
Speaker 3:I did a lot of different jobs in the audio industry because I wanted to just get my feet wet, trying to take on as much as I could see what I enjoyed and and that led me to a whole bunch of different paths and for you know, in some ways maybe that was a slower way to go about doing it, but I think in the end it gave me a flexibility that, for the lifestyle I want to live, was was the right choice, right? So, yeah, I mean all that to say for, for people that are listening, who are trying to get into this industry, I do think that, like sure, if you can get into the big studios and, like you have that drive where you don't mind Working really, really long hours for very little pay and you can afford to do that, if, if you can, if you are in that situation and you find the right mentor, then I think that can lead to some incredible things.
Speaker 3:But it also has to be the lifestyle that you want, right, and I think that that's a really important thing, I had the opportunity to to work for a bigger producer I won't say his name, but she he was he and you probably heard me talk about this in my podcast. It was like you know, he wanted me to fly across the country and, like, when we were talking about you know, work hours and stuff, he was like you're gonna work 20 hours a day, seven days a week and for like no money, and this was like a chance to have big credits under my belt. But I was like no, at first. He was like and I thought he was joking. And I said to him like okay, you know, haha. Like you know, if I'm gonna move across the country, like you know, 20 hours a day, like what are the real hours? And he was like, no, you remember, there, four hours in the day, you'll figure out how to live. And I was like what about sleep, you know?
Speaker 3:So like, to me, that was just like not the lifestyle I wanted and so, yeah, between like the places I was working at and that, that situation, I was just like I guess I got jaded about the old, the old Studio model and was just like just gonna do it on my own, you know and and just see how that rides out and I think in the end it worked for the better for me. And, like, I learned a lot about marketing on the way along the way and you know, I learned a lot about my, my Running a studio as a business, which is another big thing yeah, there was a lot that I learned along the way and it's, you know, it's slowly building up to something really great for me. So I'm happy with where I'm at right now you know, yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2:I remember on the episode, or remember you saying that, about the 20 hours and the four hours in a day. It's crazy, isn't it? It's almost because they are Not like Hens teeth as we say over here in the UK when something is that rare, but because there is a demand for it. It's supply and demand. I guess these producers and engineers can say they can be like well, if you don't do, I'll find someone else like oh yeah, who would want to take this opportunity.
Speaker 3:So and the funny thing is that is that I said no and then I I know someone who said yes shortly after and she lasted like a week and was just like fuck this, like it's just not okay. You know, I don't know if I could swear on your podcast. Oh, that's fine, okay, um, but yeah, she was like no, like this is like this is Not a way to live.
Speaker 3:you know who cares your credits under your belt, but like at the end of the day, like if you hate life and like you can't enjoy things. And what's the fun in that? You know?
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly, I With you on that, like with the sort of low and slow route, as it were, and not building that portfolio and that and whatnot. Did you start out dry hiring studios or did you immediately have a space I had?
Speaker 3:like I. I was working out of my parents basement for the longest time. You know like I would just find local bands and be like, hey, like my parents aren't home on the weekend. Yeah, okay, come record.
Speaker 3:You know it's like it was literally like that, like I would try to do whatever I could and and my parents were pretty they are very supportive and like they were very tolerant, I'd say and you know they let me have a lot of bands over that, like you know, some of these bands are god-awful, but they would, they would, they tolerated the noise, you know, and like they were like, okay, like we see that you want to do this, so like, do it test it out, see how good you are at it, like how passionate you are about it. And so, yeah, I got my start doing that and then, yeah, I worked out of a couple local studios. I tried to find places where I could make noise, because, you know, it was much easier than having to skirt around my parents all the time. But, yeah, I started working out of like a couple a little smaller spaces and just kind of worked my way up and found a couple different Studios to work out of whenever I needed to. Eventually, I did have my own space for a while and then I had that space.
Speaker 3:For how long now? Probably, like it was probably like six or seven years or something, and then, right before the pandemic, I closed it, which was great. It was like perfect timing and I just dedicated. But, like at this point, now I mainly do like mixing and mastering projects and I have a home studio which works great for me and I can do that. I don't necessarily need to have bands over at the house and, yeah, you know I do. Most of my work is international anyway at this point. So so, yeah, I kind of just did that and that worked out better for me too, because now I don't have to, like a commercial place that I'm responsible for and you know, rent big, big lease somewhere. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, 100%, yeah, and I think you're right.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of audio engineers do start out with that sort of there in their parents place and their parents sort of saying okay and then doing that, and I mean I was quite lucky and I found a rehearsal space and they would let me use their space and I Basically said, okay, well, you can use it, I'll use the equipment here, and I managed to do that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it kind of segues now nicely on to the, the next part, which is you mentioned there about being a mixing and mastering engineer and what we're gonna sort of focus on now for the sort of Made check the episode is, is mastering, because it is a is a huge Pain point, I guess you would say, of the audience, because and there is so much information online I find that's the mastering and missing misconceptions and whatnot. So I think it's a really good one for our audience To sort of delve into. So you sort of like tell us more about the, the role of a mastering engineer, and what do you look for in a project. So are there any red flags that you look for in a project?
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah. So as far as the the role of a mastering engineer, I think the way I could best sum it up is that, like, your job as a mastering engineer is to prepare the music for release in the best way possible. And I think that mastering kind of has two components to it. There is the audio component to it and then there's the production component of it. And when I talk about production, I'm not talking about, like, audio production, I'm talking more about like Manufacturing, production or distribution production, right. So the audio side of it is like you get a mix, you make it sound better. That's the easiest way I can sum it up.
Speaker 3:Right, there's a lot of different parts that go into that. Like, you know, eq, compression, limiting, all that kind of stuff. But you know, the mix, the, the mastering audio portion of it, is really just, yeah, taking a track and Making it sound better, making it so that it translates from one set of speakers to another better, finding a better balance overall. You know, getting clarity, that kind of stuff. So that's how I would describe that part of it. And then there is the manufacturing, production side of things, which is more Delivery, specs. So, you know, making sure that everything is at proper levels or proper file format for manufacturing.
Speaker 3:If people are making CDs or if they're going to a digital distributor, you know making sure that everything is good on that side, that your tracks are gonna sound good on that platform as well. You've got like meta data embedded in the files so that you know when someone plays their, plays, their CD or whatever in in their car, you know like your song and artist name comes up and all that stuff. You know all that kind of thing is. I think that's the. That's the side of things with mastering that I think people forget about. You know that we tend to focus more on the audio side of things, but there is like that back end of like Making sure that it's like all these little details that often get overlooked are actually well prepared and crafted. So yeah, that's that's what I think of the role as a mastering engineer. The other what was the other part of your question was it's like red flags.
Speaker 2:So it's an interesting question, sort of like if someone was to approach you or a potential client, an artist, was to approach you with a, with a project. Are there any sort of red flags that stand out to you with regards to a mix, before it then goes to mastering?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, king, I'm glad to clarify that. It like there's there's problem, problem client red flags, that's one thing, but but I mean, as far as like preparing a mix for mastering, the biggest thing I would say there is, like Often people will want to over compress, that's the biggest one. I think, like over compress or you get have tracks that are way too loud and I don't mind. Like I'm one of those mastering engineers that, like I'll tell people, like try to make it so that your peaks sit around minus six, whatever, right, but if you give me minus three, I don't care. You know what I mean. Like I'm not gonna be like harping on you for that I'll work with it, but the bigger.
Speaker 3:The reason why I would suggest minus six is just because it gives a lot of headroom so that mastering engineer can do what they need to do and they're not gonna be clipping or they're not gonna like they have room to work with.
Speaker 3:So that's one of the things as far as levels go. And the other thing is just like, yeah, don't over compress or don't over limit your mixes, because when you do that, you kind of put yourself, you paint yourself, in a corner where, like there's only so much that can be done right, and oftentimes it's like people just trying to make like a fake master to impress their clients and say, like listen how loud this is, and it sounds just as loud as your other favorite artists but like that's not the stage for that. That's what mastering is about, you know? Yeah, yeah. So I think it's just like yeah, if you don't know what you're doing, don't try to make a fake master. You know what I mean. Like I get why people do it, but I think like if you're gonna and if you're gonna do that, then just send an unlimited uncompressed version to your mastering engineer and then they've, they can hear both versions and work off whichever works best, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a question off the back of that then. So you would sort of tell a potential artist's client to basically leave that sort of mixed bus free then, not to compress, not to limit, just leave it free of any processing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, a little bit of compression is fine, you know, if that's part of the sound, like a lot of I know a lot of mixing engineers that mix with bus compression on, and I do that too, that's fine right. But I think that, like I go very, very gentle with my bus compression, you know, I'll have, like you know, one and a half to one ratio and maybe, like maybe two to EB of compression at most you know, in just very random spots of the song.
Speaker 3:So like that's very transparent. But like sometimes you'll get a mix where someone's like got like minus 10, four to one ratio, like throughout the entire track, and then it's just like everything's slammed and there's nothing you can do with that, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I'm fairly certain on every mix I've done I've got the SSL channel plugin on pretty much every mix bus with those settings there. I think there's one kind of like classic setting with that one. I can't remember what it is. It might be an all the way slow attack and then a fast release, or it might be the auto. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like two to one. It's a fan-saster piece of kit. That's all I got every mix bus.
Speaker 3:It's funny. I'm looking at my SSL bus compressor in front of me like I have a physical one and yeah it's exactly that.
Speaker 2:It's like slow attack, fast release, you know yeah yeah, yeah, I had the pleasure of working with a duality desk for about a year or so. I absolutely loved it and, yeah, running everything through that, I'd love to get one. Can you, I think, can you now get them?
Speaker 3:I mean, have you got the big duality desk or have you just got like the small console no, I just have like a, so I don't even have like mine's like a Stam audio SSL bus clone, but it's just like the one unit rack-mounted thing, but it works great. I like it a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a fantastic piece of kit. Once again, it's one of those plugins that I mentioned so much on the podcast. I use the.
Speaker 3:SSL bus. Like the plugins, I use those all the time. Like to be honest. It's funny like I have. I do have a lot of outboard gear in front of me. Unfortunately, you can't see it on the camera here, but yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:But I had all this because, like when I had a studio that I was recording bands out of all time. I like tracking through outboard gear, but I actually kind of hate mixing and mastering with it. You know, like it's kind of just sitting in front of me like almost untouched most of the time because, yeah, I just like the plugins are so much easier, they sound often just as good. You know, sometimes they think they sound better than my hardware. Sometimes, like, sometimes, like the difference is so negligible it's like I'll just stick with the plugin for the sake of recall or whatever. Yeah, yeah, you know, and sometimes, like, the hardware does do the magic and I guess it's like, okay, well, I guess, you know, begrudgingly, I'll use the hardware because it's like you know that just has something that I can't replicate in software. So then I'll do it. But I hate using outboard gear because then, like, the recall part of it sucks, you know, yeah yeah, exactly yeah, I'm 100% in the box.
Speaker 2:And I remember having to recall I was using this old Audient desk and I had to go and recall a session. I was just like, no, this is why am I doing this, why am I putting myself through this? I don't have someone working with me who's able to do it. So yeah, I'm totally with you on that. One thing you did mention then, when I sort of clarified the Red Flags question, was about clients. So this has gone off on a bit of a tangent now. Yeah, of course, for our audience listening, who wants to then start working with artists and clients and whatnot. What Red Flags do you look for in a potential sort of project as an individual client or artist?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 3:I think that can come in so many different forms, but usually, like usually, when you have a client who's telling you how the project's gonna go and like you know like this is what we need, you're gonna do this, or whatever. Like if it's like against my normal like process, then like that's immediately like okay, I know this isn't gonna work for you. You know, it's very, very, very, very rare that I have someone that does that. So that's one thing where, like, if you get an artist who's like not really done their project but they're like I wanna submit something to you now, and then like we're gonna re-record something, we're gonna add something after the fact and then we're gonna send you the new version, it's like no, that's like send me it when you're done. You know Stuff like that will come up. I don't know if someone's like telling me their price. That's usually like another way to right, especially if they're like super low balling you or that kind of thing. But fortunately I don't have too many of those situations come up, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And also like I mean and maybe this goes without saying, but there's also and I'm sure you know this too like there's so many like email scams that people you know like you'll get the same email like over and over again, and you kind of realize like, oh, this is a scam. So if you see those kind of things, like you know the limo scam is like a big one for audio engineers, or like they'll get you to like hire a limo or like some taxi or something like that for their clients. And so if I see something like that, I'm like now this, you're trying to just get me to lose money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had one I think it was last week where they wanted to fly me out to Hawaii for two weeks, yeah, and I think I did respond and I was just kind of like, no, yeah, and there was another one I kept getting as well, which was someone who was trying to give me a piano. They just kept getting it through my, through the website, and it was just like my father's died or something along those lines. I've got this piano, I really want to give it to you and I just say I don't understand why. You obviously some sort of bot or something like that, but it just seems so random. But, yeah, I tell you, I get what you mean with the limo. Yeah, the Hawaii one. When I first read it I was like that sounds really nice, but ultimately, like they did have a presence on Spotify, the music sounded okay, but yeah, it was very, very weird, that's interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I haven't heard of that one. There's another one that's like. There's another one that I've seen where it's like people that will write like custom birthday songs for like kids or something like that and then they need like a mixing engineer for that project or a recording engineer for that project. So yeah, I don't know Just if something seems fishy to any of the listeners, like if you get an email where it seems fishy, too good to be true, just look it up and I'm sure you'll quickly find out if other people have the same experience with it.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts on? If someone asked you about your equipment that you use, Does that, is that a bit of a red flag for you, or is that like a totally that's an okay question?
Speaker 3:It's funny because like, yeah, if someone asked me that, truly, if they asked me that I don't really have a lot of, like mastering gear, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like I have, like my SSL, whatever, I've got a lot of great gear for recording, great preamps and stuff like that, but, like, I always just tell them, like, if you like, if you heard what's on my portfolio when you like it, then you're gonna like what you, yeah, what you're gonna get. You know, my portfolio speaks for itself at this point, you know, and and I and I also tell people to like, if they want to record a, if they want to do a whole Album of mastering with me or of mixing whatever I was just telling, like, just do one, just choose one song, let's start with that. You know, if, like, you're hesitant, let's do one song, I'll knock it out of the park for you and then it'll make it a no-brainer to the rest of them. You know, and it doesn't matter what gear I have, um, because you're gonna get the sound that you need. And if I don't, if I, if I can't get that sound, then I'm not the right person for you, you know yeah, no, that's really really good.
Speaker 2:I like that answer because it's something I've listened to. I listened to other music podcasts and it's something that routinely comes up and it's kind of like if they asked you for a gearless or a Step-by-step play of what you do, which I guess is a fair question. But in my mind, when I see that I'm kind of like this, this person's potentially gonna be more trouble than this project's gonna be worth, sort of thing, and Much like you with, the response I give is just like would you've seen the portfolio? Let's do a track and see what happens. I'm not gonna sort of list out every piece of equipment I have, or I think I had one which was like you haven't got a gear list online, and my response was yes, that's correct.
Speaker 3:It really doesn't matter, right? Yeah, I know it's crazy if the plug-in sounds so good these days and I don't know that. Like I guess if you're doing like attended sessions, then maybe that matters more because then, like someone wants to see that gear and they want to see that you're using it. But at the end of the day, like I mean, I could make up a not that I do ever have done this, but like I could make up a list of amazing gear that you know it's not like people are gonna hear the master and be like oh yeah, I totally heard that you use this son tech EQ or you know whatever it like they don't notice that stuff.
Speaker 3:It's, at the end of the day, it's like, however you get to the, however you get, the sound is all that matters, you know yeah like I recently, just for fun, I, for my students, I was doing a mix where took a mix where I had like, use a whole bunch of like, you know, I guess, premium plugins or whatever you want to call them right third party plugins.
Speaker 3:And then I, years later, I went back and I did like a Entirely like stock plug-in mix of it and it sounds just as good. You know, the, the. It took me way more time to do it with the stock plugins because it was just like I had to. I had to like Finesse it a little bit more and those plugins were maybe a little more tricky to maneuver around or like you know, like whatever, but but at the end of the day it still sounded just as good as the, as the premium one. So I imagine, if I do the same thing with outboard gear, be the same same result. You know it's like doesn't matter, it's just you get, you get to the finish line. However, you get to the finish line, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's quite refreshing for the audience to hear like that and it's something once again that said a lot. Is it like the? The end product is what people are listening to and they don't really care too much. What sort of like you say what, what compressor you've slapped on the drum bus or anything like that. You know, if it sounds good, it is good. It's that sort of thing, isn't it? That's yeah, why?
Speaker 3:and it's like and the only people that actually care about that stuff sort of get you off. The only care about that are audio engineers, I guess you know. And it's not even because, like, they notice a sound quality difference. I think it's just like they're just curious, you know. Yeah, yeah, but it's like my wife knows nothing about any of the gear that I use and she's just like, yeah, good song Sounds good. Yeah, like I'm like, oh, I love how you use that SSL bus compressor and you know the two to one ratio really made a difference, you know.
Speaker 2:I can really hear that tape saturation. Yeah, it's making that that bit of difference there. Yeah, excellent. And so moving on to another question with regards to mastering. So our audience is new to mastering, that they want to start doing themselves, they want to go down the DIY route. What concept of? Because you mentioned there's two different sort of aspects really, you've got the sort of like the finessing side and you've got the actual back-end side. What part of, or concept of, mastering should they start with or master?
Speaker 3:One of their way of putting it first yeah, I Think that, when it comes to this, this is a bit of a loaded answer In a sense that, like, I think that the key thing to master, if you're going to learn how to master, is is the tools you know, and, and not just like how to use the tools but, more importantly, like how to manipulate those tools to get the sound that you want right. So, like, really like it's one thing to know an EQ because, at the end of the day, like, mastering is really simple. I think it's. I think it's simple once you get the hang of it. It's like EQ compressions I'm limiting, you know, maybe some saturation, that kind of stuff and Most mixing engineers know how to use an EQ but, like they don't know the frequency Spectrum you know, like in the sense of like a lot of people know, like, okay, if I adjust this knob, it turns up that frequency, and if I turn this knob, it adjusts the frequency itself, and they'll sweep around until they hear a problem and then they'll make an adjustment, you know, and like, based on whatever their ears tell them, and that's a valid way to do things.
Speaker 3:But I think that, like, if you want to become a really professional Mixing engineer or mastering engineer. You have to understand, like, what characteristics of sound for different instruments apply to certain frequencies but certain frequency ranges, right. So it's like if you want to bring out like more of the stick attack of a snare drum, you're gonna be looking in that like Two to three K range and then, or if you're looking for more of that smack kind of sound of it, not just like the woody sound, then you might be looking around 8k or that kind of stuff, right. So if you start to like identify these different characteristics of sound, it allows you to Quickly address the issue as opposed to like sweeping around trying to find a problem. You know, and so I think I think that's the biggest thing it's like really committing Frequency ranges to memory, understanding how to use compressor properly and how, how a compressor like how the attack knob changes the amount of Transient energy in a song, that kind of thing, or how the release can make a song pump or you know like make something sound choked off, not gonna stuff. When you understand those kind of those tools in that way, then it allows you to use them the way that you hear in your head, right.
Speaker 3:Like, I think, one of the one of the biggest issues that a lot of people have is that they don't. They don't have a clear vision, or often they have a. They either don't have a vision at all for what they want the final product to sound like, or they do have a vision for what they wanted to sound like, but they just don't know how to get the tools to do that. You know, and so you, yeah, just really like committing to memory those frequency ranges as a big thing, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember when I was starting out and when you mentioned about the frequency ranges. I think if you go on Google and were to type that in, you can get these A3, a4,. Well, they're not going to be on your screen but you can get them printed as well, where it's got the frequency spectrum and then it's got like a table underneath with the actual instruments and then it will give you the instrument in the frequency range. The sort of timbre of the instrument is there, what sort of sound you're going to get if you start boosting in that range. So audience listening, I don't know what you would search for for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, actually frequency ranges, something like that probably. I was going to say, if people want a resource for that, I have one on my website that they can download for free. If anyone visits masteryourmixcom, forward slash blueprint. I've got basically a cheat sheet that has a whole bunch of EQ frequencies to pay attention to how to use compression. It's all one guy, that's all free, so people can sign up and download that Fantastic.
Speaker 2:I'll put a link in the episode notes for that as well.
Speaker 3:Awesome thanks, man.
Speaker 2:Because that'll be fantastic and I like what you said there about vision as well.
Speaker 3:So do you think, with regards to vision, is that where a reference master or reference song will really help when it comes to your DIY, when you're starting out with mastering, and also, I think, just in general as well, I think when you're mastering yeah, I think references are one of the most underutilized things when it comes to audio production, because I think, at the end of the day, we all have this idea of what pro quality sounds sound like, and I think that's often based on our own history of listening to artists that we enjoy. So we look at the music we love as that standard of like things should sound as good as this, and often when we're writing music, we kind of we're writing in a similar style, often because people take after their influences, but that's kind of our benchmark for what something should sound like. And I think that references can be used in so many ways throughout the audio production side of things Like it can be used to help you with arrangements of songs. It can be used to help you with tones. It can be used to help you with when you're recording, like determining the character of a sound that you want. So then maybe that influences your mic-ing positions, that kind of stuff. It can be used to help you with your editing decisions where you know how tuned a vocal should be or how tight a drum pattern should be. As far as mixing goes, it can be used to help you with levels and panning and compression and EQ settings like that kind of stuff or effects, and then, from a mastering perspective too, references can also be used to help you get that frequency balance that's going to translate.
Speaker 3:One thing I tell people all the time is it's not about making a mix sound great on your studio monitors, believe it or not, it's not about how great it sounds in your room. It's about making a mix that translates. And references are one of the easiest ways to do that, because if you hear that your mix has a ton more low end than your favorite songs when you play them on your speakers, then that means that when you play it on a car that has a subwoofer, it's going to be way, way, way too big. So it's like maybe you need to thin out the low end in your mix because that's going to make it sound better in your car or any other set of speakers. Right? I think references are one of these really important tools that there's so many different applications you can use them in and certainly, like I'm constantly using reference tracks with all of my projects.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really like the fact that you mentioned about songwriting and arrangement there as well, because I use a reference track when I'm arranging, when I'm songwriting. I have a I think I've said this on Instagram, I've been the story or something but I have a playlist on Spotify. When I hear a song, I chuck it in this playlist and I think actually I really like that sound and then I'll chuck it into a template and then I'll start creating not trying to create it like verbatim, trying to recreate what they've done but I think that's highly underused or underutilized. I've spoken to a number of producers and they're just like. I've never thought of doing that, actually using it in the arrangement phase. I use it in every phase mixing and mastering as well, using a reference.
Speaker 2:And just to echo what you said there about yeah, it sounds great on your studio monitors, but you've got to think the high percentage of listeners a lot of them are just listening through their phone or their laptop speaker, which I can't feel myself. It's just oh, it is offensive to my ears, but that's me just being really, really picky. But yeah, 100%. But, mike, moving on, this is sort of our last question of today and I like asking this one when it comes to mixing and mastering, what do you think is the biggest myth or misconception in mastering today?
Speaker 3:It's a good question. Yeah, I think that the biggest misconception these days is that you need to this could be a whole episode in itself but that you need to deliver at the specs that Spotify or Title or whoever tell you you need to deliver at, because Spotify will say, like oh, minus 14 loves is what you should be aiming for. But if you master it at that, then when you go to another platform that doesn't have the minus 14, then it kind of sounds weird. Or when you master or when you make CDs, then it's like too quiet now. So these days, if you actually were to analyze the top five or top probably top 100 songs out there right now and you actually analyze their levels, they're significantly louder than what Spotify recommends and they even go over zero in terms of intersample peaks and stuff like that. So I think that that just goes to show that these are recommendations, but they're not requirements.
Speaker 3:They're not like a hard wall kind of thing. So, yeah, I think you don't need to necessarily worry about that. I think there's so many great tools out there like there's a plugin. Alliance has one called this streamliner, I believe the plug is called, that allows you to like hear what it sounds like on all of these different platforms at their delivery specs. So it'll take your current mix with however loud it is, however, whatever it sounds like, and then it'll apply the codec and whatever normalization settings that these delivery services will use and it lets you hear what your mix will sound like. So I think just doing your due diligence and checking it with something like that is really helpful because, yeah, if it sounds like crap, then maybe you can adjust something a little bit right.
Speaker 3:But most of the time if you've got a pretty good mix, you've got a pretty good master, it's going to sound pretty solid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned that and because episode 99 is one where I've just gone through LUTs and I basically echo what you said there about streaming platforms and how it says minus 14, but just make it sound good ultimately, so it's conducive to the music and it sounds good. You mentioned there about codecs. Would that be similar to the one that's in Isotope, because Isotope got an AAC and an MP3 codec.
Speaker 3:I think so, was it slightly more? To be honest, I've never used one in Isotope, oh okay, yeah, I've only ever used like the streamliner, and I just use that as a quick reference check. But yeah, I imagine I'm pretty sure Isotope has one. That is the same concept.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I imagine it would be. There's a website as well for the audience listening. If you don't have that, where I think you can upload it and it'll tell you exactly how much it will be turned down by.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Ian Shepherd has one. It's called Loudness Penalty.
Speaker 1:And that'll tell you how much it'll drop it or whatever.
Speaker 3:But even that could be deceiving to some degree, because you might see these numbers and get scared by it. But at the end of the day, it's more about how it actually sounds. I think yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you audition using the Apple codec, the Apple droplet? Do you do that?
Speaker 3:I just use the streamliner, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm interested, and half the time I don't even worry about it, to be honest, either.
Speaker 3:I've just done so many now that I kind of know what to expect If a mix comes to me sounding super, super compressed to begin with. Those are always the ones that I feel are the most at risk, because everything is just like hard walled and already sounds compressed and limited. So then to add more of this compression or whatever these algorithms do, then it might mess with it a little bit more. If you have a fairly dynamic mix, it'll usually translate pretty well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I asked this question, sorry of Elaine. Do you just do the sort of one mix, sorry, one master, rather than do one for each platform? Is it just like one master?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I always do one master. Yeah, I mean, I guess for like a bigger for, like bigger label projects and stuff like that. They'll ask for more. But generally I just do the one, master, because it's the if you give people too many options, they'll inevitably like especially like the artists like they have time, they aren't paying attention so they might send it to the distributor with the wrong file and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, yeah, and once again I think I said this is someone the other day is like when you're uploading that master to destroy kids CD, baby, whatever it may be, you can only upload one anyway.
Speaker 3:Unless you pay for more. You can pay for more, but like no one wants to do that.
Speaker 2:No, no, exactly Exactly. By the way, we're coming towards the end now, so I think it'd be great if you can maybe tell the audience a bit about sort of, maybe the master mix podcast and some other bits and pieces that you do.
Speaker 3:Sure, thanks, ben. Well, yeah, so, as Mark was saying, I run a podcast called the master your mix podcast and you know very similar to what Mark's doing here. I'm interviewing lots of different engineers throughout the industry, had a lot of great, great guests in the past. We've had people like Sylvia Massey, andrew Shepes, david Benda, the whole bunch of other great people and, yeah, basically that podcast kind of started as an excuse for me to just like talk with cool people and learn more about their process, kind of, you know, similar to what we're talking about here. And you know it's just been a great podcast from a learning perspective and for a teaching perspective as well. So you know it's been very cool to run that. So definitely recommend people check that out.
Speaker 3:And then, yeah, I also run a website, masteryourmixcom, which is where I help out musicians with creating pro sound and recordings from their home studio, and I've got courses and coaching programs where I help people throughout the recording, editing and mixing process, primarily focus on mainly rock music. But, yeah, lots of great resources on that website but free downloads, as I mentioned earlier. So definitely check that out and if people are interested in learning more about maybe working with me from a mastering perspective or mixing perspective. They can check out my production website, which is Mike in Davinacom, and I've got my portfolio in there and there's contact form on there if people want to reach out to me Fantastic.
Speaker 2:There we go, folks. I'll put links to all that in the episode description. And I haven't listened to the Andrew Shapps episode yet, so that is going to be booked, mark, for this week.
Speaker 3:He's awesome man. I love that guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had a chance, I think, to go and attend one of his sessions, but I can't remember why I didn't go. Probably some reason, I can't remember. But yeah, I'm going to go listen to that one. It's my Jim soundtrack listening to your podcast and a few others as well, of the morning.
Speaker 3:Oh, thanks man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, it's good, I love it. It's great stuff. It's great, it's fantastic Audience. Do go check it out and you've probably seen. If you follow the podcast on Instagram to the audience, you'll see me. I share the posts and whatnot, so hopefully it'll send some more people your way, which would be amazing. But, mike, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.
Speaker 3:It's a big game, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the audience is going to get loads out of this because, as I say, mastering and it's kind of what we're focusing on the podcast at the moment now for about four or six episodes, maybe longer, with regards to mastering. So I know it's been brilliant and, yeah, a big thanks again for joining me today, of course Anytime. And I'll catch up with you soon. Anytime, man Love to come back. Cheers, buddy.
