#132: How to Promote Your Music and Get Noticed on Social Media with Jen Fritz

Have you ever been frustrated with how to promote your music? Maybe you're seeking answers to topics on how to get your music noticed, what music marketing is, how to promote your own music on social media, or maybe you just want to know how to market your music. Then check out EP 131 of the Inside The Mix podcast.

Navigating the treacherous seas of digital music marketing can feel like a momentous task, but fear not, as Jen Fritz from Fritz Media joins me, in shedding light on this dizzying world. We untangle the web of social media strategies, offering actionable insights for independent artists looking to harmonize their creative and online personas in 2024. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by the relentless content creation machine, our discussion provides a beacon of hope, emphasising the value of genuine connections over viral obsessions.

In this episode, we crack open the reality of social media's toll on mental health and creativity. We're sharing stories from our battles with the content beast and strategies to keep your head above water without stifling your artistic spirit. From the intricacies of algorithmic engagement to the serendipity of unexpected audience resonance, we explore the delicate dance of being both a creator and a marketer in an increasingly online-centric industry. As a bonus, I reveal my approach to avoiding the pitfalls of over-posting and syncing with the rhythm of the digital tide.

As we round off this auditory journey, we peer into the crystal ball of music industry education and marketing trends. With digital literacy becoming the cornerstone of a musician's toolkit, we discuss the resources available to sharpen your skills. We also stroll through the diverse landscape of music discovery, from curated playlists to the global radio scene.

So tune in, as Jen and I serve up an array of industry insights, ensuring you're hitting all the right notes in the symphony of digital music marketing.

Click here to follow Jen: https://www.fritzmedia.ca/
Click here to listen to the FM podcast: https://www.thefmpodcast.com/

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Transcript

Jen Fritz: 0:01

You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews.

Marc Matthews: 0:06

Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. I'm Mark Matthews, your host, musician, producer and mix and mastering engineer. You've come to the right place if you want to know more about your favorite synth music artists, music engineering and production, songwriting and the music industry. I've been writing, producing, mixing and mastering music for over 15 years and I want to share what I've learned with you. Hello, folks, and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. If you are a new listener, make sure you hit follow on your podcast Player of Choice and if you're watching this on YouTube, make sure you hit that subscribe button and that notification bell so you get notified any time that a new episode of the podcast drops. And to my returning listeners, a big welcome back, as always.

Marc Matthews: 0:49

I've made a purchase for the podcast. I've invested in a Shure SM7B and this is the first time that I'm using it on the podcast. I'm using it in this intro not in the actual interview that we're about to go into, but in this intro itself and I'm still trying to work out whether or not I want to use the built-in pre-app on the actual microphone, because it gives me I've got the option between 18 dB and 27 or 28 dB, I think it is, or alternatively, at the moment I've got it running just using the juice from my interface, which seems to be more than enough. I haven't quite worked out which way I want to do it yet, but with my voice being quite loud as it is, I'm finding that I'm not needing a pre-app. So there is one built into this microphone, but you can get the version with a cloud lifter, for example. But keep an eye out. I may release a video where I'm A-being it who knows but at the moment really enjoying it. It's very, very nice. It's a very nice microphone.

Marc Matthews: 1:41

So in this episode of the podcast, I am joined by Jen Fritz of Fritz Media and the FM podcast and we discuss digital music marketing strategies for independent artists and what that might look like in 2024. We talk about navigating changing landscapes and the ever-evolving world of digital music marketing and some key trends or shifts that Jen has observed in 2024 and what you, the independent artist and producer, should be aware of. We talk about social media strategies, algorithms, constantly changing, what strategies that Jen recommends for independent artists to maximize their reach and engagement on platforms like TikTok and Instagram. We discuss artists in 2024 pulling back from social media. We discuss the constant dilemma are we artists or are we content creators, or are we something in between? And then we discuss what long-term music marketing strategies should artists employ to build a sustainable career in music, and how can artists cultivate a loyal fan base and monetize their music effectively and efficiently in 2024?. And then we wrap things up with Jen's one key piece of advice for artists navigating the evolving landscape of digital music marketing.

Marc Matthews: 2:51

So that's enough waffle for me, so let's dive into this episode with Jen Fritz of Fritz Media and the FM podcast. Hey folks, and in this episode I'm very excited to welcome my guest today, jen Fritz of Fritz Media and the FM podcast. Hi Jen, thanks for joining me today, and how are you?

Jen Fritz: 3:10

Oh, hello, I'm doing. Great Thanks for asking. As I was saying off mic, I've got a little bit of a cold or something, so my voice is a little raspier than usual. So you know, enjoy that.

Marc Matthews: 3:22

Yeah, it's one of those ones. We got lean closer into the microphone as well, so you can fully extenuate the raspiness of your voice. No but no, thanks for joining me today. It's always nice to have another podcast on the podcast as well At least at all. I need to do more of it.

Jen Fritz: 3:38

Right.

Marc Matthews: 3:39

Well, yeah, there, exactly, yes, yeah, we were discussing that off air, weren't we about the difference in microphones that people use and whatnot? So yeah, 100%. So a bit of. I'm just going to read through your bio that I've got here. That's been summarized so you got a deep rooted passion for music, cultivated from a diverse upbringing surrounded by Willie Nelson and ABBA. That's quite a ABBA is. My parents tried to drill ABBA into me growing up. They still maintain that ABBA is the major influence on me and I'm into heavy metal and I don't see them.

Marc Matthews: 4:09

They still maintain it. So your journey began in radio, progressing through various roles and stations across Alberta and British Columbia. Transitioning to Vancouver, you embarked on a career in the music industry, initially at network and New Music West, before serving as VP of media relations at Frontside Group, and in 2009, jen ventured into freelance publicity, collaborating with esteemed clients such as the Vancouver 2010 Olympics and Sony Music Entertainment, and this experience culminated in the establishment of your own music publicity and digital marketing firm, fritz Media, which is why I've got you on the podcast today, because we're going to be talking about digital music, music marketing. Put my teeth back in for independent artists and what that might look like in 2024.

Jen Fritz: 4:58

Yeah, exciting stuff. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me on.

Marc Matthews: 5:02

No, it's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. So I think it'd be quite cool to start with sort of navigating the changing landscape. So I think it might be good if you could sort of talk about the ever evolving world of digital music marketing. So what are some key trends or shifts I know it's early in the year, but that you've observed in 2024, that independent artists should be aware of?

Jen Fritz: 5:22

I think you know you say that the ever-revolving digital landscape, I mean and that's really important because, like when I started actually doing publicity, as you said, like I started in radio, I made the switch from radio to, you know, the music industry in about 2003.

Jen Fritz: 5:40

And you know, if I even think back to 2003, and when I started doing publicity and you know I was doing radio promotion as well when I first started what my job was then and what my job is now in 2024 are to completely different jobs. If you just think back to even, you know, even 10 years ago and think about it, like there was more music journalists that I could pitch there, you know there were music journalists on newspapers, there were music, there were more music blogs, there was more places for me to get really good editorial content for my clients. Even 10 years ago, social media wasn't the same as it is now. It was different. And then you know, when I started there was no social media. So, essentially, as the years progress, my job has become more and more and more and more and it's just like it feels like there's one more thing to add to the plate, and I really think that that's how artists feel as well.

Jen Fritz: 6:47

It's just one more thing to add to the list Like, it's like you have to make the music, but on top of that, you're expected to also create all of this content online, and I think that there's actually a really big pushback about that right now, because it's like what am I? Am I creating music or am I creating content, or am I creating both? And I think a lot of artists kind of get stuck in the weeds on that and kind of forget why they're making music in the first place, right, like they're too. They can get wrapped up and, you know, trying to go viral on TikTok or trying to make something happen on Instagram, and you know it has to start with good music at the core, right. So that should be your focus first and foremost. So, you know, going back to your point of you know, what kind of trends are we going to see this year? I, you know. I mean, I think we're going to see more of a pullback from artists on social media.

Jen Fritz: 7:47

Personally, I think a lot of artists are getting fed up with it. You know, there are those artists there's TikTok artists that specifically make music and do it on TikTok, and good, that's great, that's, that's the platform for them. But I think that you know I say this to our clients you don't have to be there. You can find a platform that works for you, like, if your fans are on Instagram, sit on Instagram and make your content there and speak directly to them. Don't worry about you know, making what's trending on TikTok, trying to hop on the trends. You know all of that because we all know how time consuming that is. We know how long it takes to make that content for something that may not get looked at by anybody, to be honest, and so you know it's important to like, focus your time to where you think people are going to appreciate it and see it. Yeah, so that's like, that's just like one trend.

Marc Matthews: 8:48

I see I mean I could be wrong, you know, but you know, I was going to say that what you said there perfectly resonates with me as an individual, to be honest, because I'm an artist as well and I release music as an artist and producer and with the podcast.

Marc Matthews: 9:03

And it's interesting you mentioned about pulling back from social media, because I was quite heavy on it last year in terms of promoting the podcast mainly, and then I released an EP and I was focusing on that for a set period of time, but it got to the beginning of the year and I was just I was quite drained, to be honest, of social media and I thought you know what, I'm going to take a step back.

Marc Matthews: 9:24

I'm still going to put new podcast episodes and promote the podcast episodes and whatnot, but I'm just because it's like you mentioned. I think at one point I had the mindset of okay, I'm going to use this trending audio because I want this, this particular reel or TikTok video, to hopefully maybe didn't but go viral. But then I thought to myself well, is that actually what I want it to do? Is that the end goal here? Because then what do I do with all that virality? I mean, like, am I then, like you said, am I then a content creator rather than a podcaster or an artist, and I was stuck trying to figure out what I was.

Jen Fritz: 9:58

Yeah, I think that it's really important as an artist when approaching your social media, you know strategy or plan to think about. What do I want out of this? Like that's a really good starting point, because you know a lot of artists don't know that and you know, just like step back and go. Okay, what am I trying to do here? Am I trying to get more fans? Am I trying to connect with my fans? What do I want people to know about me? How much do I want to share? You know you can get a long way with just being an authentic person and sharing a bit of yourself with people, instead of trying hard to do TikTok, trending dances or whatever you're doing. The thing with that and I see it all the time speaking to TikTok is people can see when you're in authentic and people can see when you're trying too hard. And I think that comes across more particularly with Reels and with TikTok, with video content, because people aren't used to being in front of a camera. It's not like the thing that they like, that's not what they got into the game for. So it's, you know, and that's a skill. It's a skill to be okay on camera, it's a skill to do that right. And I just I see a lot of artists are like, oh well, my label told me to be on TikTok, so I got to be on TikTok. I'm just trying so hard to do something and they're not going to do something and they're not quite sure what it is that they're doing, right.

Jen Fritz: 11:30

So think about it. Just think about what you're trying to say, and you know what's unique about you aside from your music. Like, what's something? Because everybody's got something. You know what makes you you. What do you think that would connect with your audience? You know, do they want to maybe hear you talk about? Oh, I just thought of this idea of a new song and you know you play a little bit of it on reels. Is that something that's going to connect? Or you know, or hey, you know, oh my God, I just discovered this new band. Like, if you're a music lover, I think that that goes a long way. That kind of content I love to hear from artists Like, oh my God, have you heard of this band? Check it out. Like they're so cool. That kind of stuff goes a long way too. And you know, sometimes we don't think about those sort of things because they seem too simple, but they're so easy and it's such an easy connection as well, right?

Marc Matthews: 13:39

Yeah, it's all great stuff and I totally go with what you said there when you mentioned about like knowing what you want to use it for. And I had this conversation with an artist called Sunglasses Keel and it wasn't on the podcast episode but we discussed it off air and he said to me because he'd gone viral, basically with this yeah, I listened to that episode.

Marc Matthews: 13:58

I did you Fantastic, yeah. Yeah, it was really really good. It was great to see a year later how he'd got on. But he, off air. He said to me all right, if I gave you a million followers, what would you do with them? Yeah, and I was like you know what? I don't actually know what I'd do with them, like if I had a million. Obviously I'm at that point where I'd be like, well, I'm going to have to continue turning out this content that they all like. But I was thinking to myself actually, is that the end goal to have that? Because I think I'd rather have an audience that was actually engaging with what I was doing versus this huge audience. But I don't know, but it really put me on the spot and I was kind of like, actually it made me think what, what am I trying to get out of social media?

Jen Fritz: 14:34

It's, it's, it's a fair point. You'd rather have people engage with your, your podcast and, you know, be interested in what you're saying and you know, and be a part of that. Then, you know, maybe, like it's, it's, it just comes down to like we're all just trying to create communities in in different ways, right? So you know, do you want a community of people that like what you're doing and want to talk about, you know, music and production with you? Or do you want some people that are going to talk about the next crazy TikTok trend, you know, or that's not the kind of content you want to make, you know? So, yeah, that's. That's why it's good to ask that question, because maybe, you know, if you are somebody that wants that, if you just, you know, want to use being an artist as a jumping off point to get a million followers on TikTok, that's fine too, you know, just know what you're doing, going into it, that's it.

Marc Matthews: 15:31

Yeah, yeah, I a question. A question springs to mind. Actually it's kind of plain devil's advocate and it's not on my list. But if you were to talk because you mentioned there that you're an artist and they, for example, were told by their record label that you need to jump on social media and start doing some trending stuff, what if you had an artist that was sort of saying, actually I don't want to be on social media? And I mean, if they were to say that and they still want to have that push and that promotional aspect of them Is there still. I suppose it is still possible. But I mean, what would your sort of pushback on that be if they said, actually I don't want to be on social media?

Jen Fritz: 16:02

Well, I mean, I have had artists try to say that to me and what I say is you are an artist in the year 2024. This is part of the job. Now, I'm sorry, you know, that's just unfortunately how it is Nobody's holding a gun to your head and making you do this. But if you want to do this and be an artist and you know, make people hear, like get people to hear your music and get fans and this is one of the steps that you have to do and you know we're lucky to have it.

Jen Fritz: 16:38

I know a lot of people hate social media and I was just talking about oh my God, I hope it like backs off a bit, but think about it. It's a completely free and direct way to access fans. Like, imagine 20 years ago, like how that would have blown people's minds to be able to have that access to your fan base or potential fans. You can reach out directly, you can create the narrative, you can show people only what you want to show them and you know I mean major labels back in the day were spending millions of dollars for that kind of access. So you know, just think about, like, how lucky you are to have that. Yes, it sucks. I'm sorry, but that's it. Like. This is just. This is the game now. This is it. You're choosing to be an artist. You want to be in the music industry. This is it. That's what you have to do. If you don't do it, you're going to suffer the consequences. The only people that can stay off social media are Radiohead. Do you know what I mean?

Jen Fritz: 17:41

Like huge artists but that's because they already have a fan base. So you know, and even they still have people posting for them. It's just that you know Tom York's not sitting there doing the posting.

Marc Matthews: 17:54

So well, to my knowledge maybe he is, but yeah, exactly yeah, when you got those legacy acts, like you say, they can get away with it. And I was having this conversation with my girlfriend the other day because I was I'm looking at redesigning the podcast artwork, and she was pointing out these, these different podcasts and she pointed out like Joe Rogan, for example, and I was like, yeah, but everybody knows who he is, he doesn't have to do anything If I put my face on there. No, no one's gonna be like I recognize somebody might. But yeah, I was just like, yeah, it's great when you've already got that leverage. But yeah, as you mentioned, social media is you do need to do it, don't you? It's, it's, it's part of the course now. And it comes under that idea what you mentioned earlier about having you're juggling all these different things.

Marc Matthews: 18:35

I often see these infographics on social media where it's like you're an artist and then there's like the what is it? The pie chart, and then you've got all these other segments of everything you're having to do and then the artist bit for the audience listening. I'm doing a very small area of a pie chart with my hands, which unfortunately, is the way it is, but, as you mentioned earlier, you got to make that decision? I guess, like are you a content creator or are you an artist? So, with regards to pushing back on social media, how do you think that's gonna look? Do you mean is in the sense that people are going to be using it less, or is the content going to change?

Jen Fritz: 19:08

I mean, I think that a little bit of both maybe. I think that a lot of artists, particularly artists that kind of, went all in with content creation. I think it's just it comes down to like who has the time and how much like work, life balance, right. So, yeah, I think it's just more of maybe I'll just I have an album coming out or a single coming out, so I'm going to be a lot more active during those times and, you know, maybe when I'm not, I'm still going to be posting, but perhaps not as much, because that is something you know that is important to like.

Jen Fritz: 19:46

You have to like keep the wheels greased. As I say, you have to keep that algorithm liking you, because if you completely stop, you know, take a couple months off and you come back, nobody's going to see your content because that algorithms like hey, you were gone, sorry man. You have to like, unfortunately, like, most of the platforms reward, you know, consistent posting, like consistent engagement as well, like that's important too. It's not just the posting. You have to engage with other people's posts and you know, likes commenting. If somebody comments on yours, make sure you comment back, like, and you know that sounds like a lot to some people, but you know you can just like square out some time in the morning to do that.

Jen Fritz: 20:35

Do you know what I mean? You can just schedule the stuff. Think about, well, maybe I'm going to do two posts on Facebook this week, and then, you know, three posts on Instagram, and then maybe I'll do a few stories, and just like it's good to just kind of think about what your week is going to look like and then, you know, have some room for some spontaneity. It's always nice to do that if you're out and about to do a nice little story, you know, or I'm in the studio and here's another. You know those sorts of things.

Jen Fritz: 21:04

But yeah, I think artists get stuck on, you know, and I have to post. What should I post? I don't know what to post, and it just then they just don't post. You know, like it just becomes like this, almost like they freeze up, like they can't do anything. But yeah, I think, honestly, my theory of the pulling back, I think it just comes down to like the overall feeling right now that we're all feeling of we're all overworked and we're I think the pandemic kind of did that to us that, like you know, I don't, maybe we don't have to like work as hard. Maybe I should. I need more downtime, maybe I should you know, take more walks in the forest. You know, I think it just comes from that sort of thing.

Marc Matthews: 21:49

Yeah, I'm all four walks in the forest. I live in quite a rural area, so I'm all four to that. So it makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, exactly, I love it. It's brilliant. I live in a very leafy sort of rural area of England.

Jen Fritz: 22:00

It's very nice.

Marc Matthews: 22:03

It is. It is. I'm quite blessed I went live. The audience probably know because I mentioned it frequently, but it's interesting. You mentioned there about sort of the releasing of when you're posting, rather, and like when you get into that spot of actually what am I going to post today? And I do. I think I towards the end of last year and I caught my I found myself in this trap of just sort of like posting because I felt I needed to post something and then I was thinking, actually, is this worth me doing? Is it is, am I getting anything out of this? And it sort of leads. This is a question. Again, I didn't have written down, but I've got quality versus quantity here and I'm fairly certain I know what the answer is going to be with regards to that. But is there anything that's going to work against you in terms of the algorithm, apart from spamming people in DMs? I imagine that's probably not going to do you any favor.

Jen Fritz: 22:52

Well, I think, yeah, I think what you said is important, like quality versus quantity. Like you know, you don't always have to post and you shouldn't ever post for the sake of posting. Do you know what I mean? Like you know, yeah, it's good to be active and yeah, it's good to, you know, grease up the algorithm. But if you have nothing, you have nothing. You know, and that's okay too, just like, if you're out of ideas, just like, okay, maybe today's not the day to post, let's try again tomorrow and see if we have anything. Because, yeah, posting for the sake of posting is no bueno, we know that.

Jen Fritz: 23:28

And if you're going to try stuff, places like Instagram Stories or Twitter if anyone's still on Twitter are good places, like fast moving, you know sort of platforms. Those are good places to try things. You know it's. You know, don't try something by posting on your grid on Instagram or you know TikTok is actually a good place to try things too, you know, just because there's so much content and you can post so much there and so much of it is not going to take off, but sometimes it will and you don't know what that thing is, you know? And yeah, like to the point where, like, I know people that have, you know, had a great idea for a video on TikTok and, you know, posted it and it just didn't take off and they're like, well, maybe it was a time or something, and then so they just, you know, delete it and then try again later and post again and then maybe it'll work. Then, like, there's all of these people trying to like game the other.

Marc Matthews: 24:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to ask about that, actually about, like, the time of Dave, because I've looked online and I did this with YouTube shorts and I saw this article that said, like the perfect time to post a YouTube video is either 11 o'clock in the morning or three o'clock in the afternoon and I was thinking, actually, is that true? Is that? Is that like? If I do that like, is that because then I had this conversation I think it might have been with sunglasses, kid again, he's like well, at the end of the day, if it's good content or no. No, it wasn't him, it was someone. I think it might have been Damian Keys. Actually I heard him say who does the. I can't remember the name of it now I'm going to do a disservice, but anyway he said that like, no matter what time of day you post it, if it's good content, it's going to do well, rather than trying to sort of gamify and post it at a specific time.

Jen Fritz: 25:19

I'm assuming that's the case, I agree with that. The thing is is like, you know, we've all had that thing where we thought that we posted something amazing and then it just died. And you worked really hard on it and you know it's horrible, you know, and then you post something just like on the fly and it takes off right, like so we don't know the thing that's going to resonate with our audience, we just don't. It's like music, right, you can think you have a hit song and it just doesn't take off. And maybe there's another song on your record that you hadn't even thought about because you've been living with these songs for so long and your audience is like this is the one, this is a song, this is a song I love, and that becomes the song. Like we often just don't know. I mean, if we all knew how to make a hit song, I mean we all be millionaires, right. So yeah.

Jen Fritz: 26:15

So you just kind of have to put it out there and see what happens, right, so?

Marc Matthews: 26:23

yeah, no, I agree with that, and it's kind of funny because I remember the, the, the. It was a YouTube short actually, which was probably my most successful one of last year, and it was nothing related to anything that I do and it was just me throwing an axe at a board and getting a bullseye and it was like the most and it was literally like six or seven seconds and I was thinking actually, well, obviously resonates with a lot of people, whereas I put together a podcast episode and do all these tutorials stuff and it's going to get like 100 views. But hey, hey, I do it because I love it. So at the end of the day, I think that's another thing as well, isn't it? You've got to make sure that you're actually enjoying the process, otherwise then it becomes a little bit too old and with what you're doing, this brings up another point consistency.

Jen Fritz: 27:06

I think consistency is very important, especially for us as podcasters. That's the thing that kills a lot of podcasts, right, people? You know there's so many podcasts sitting on all of the platforms that maybe get up to like five episodes and then just die, and that's because it's hard to do a podcast News Flash, everybody and it's time consuming. And but, if you like, even honestly, the podcast that we do for its media, the FM podcast, I started out doing a weekly episode and now I have background in radio. I know how to produce audio at an audio. I am somebody that was coming into it like not your typical, let's start a podcast. You know, I actually had some skills.

Jen Fritz: 27:55

It helps them a lot, yeah, and even I was like, oh my God, like I do not have the capacity to do my job and also, you know, edit, write and produce this podcast every week. So I ended up doing we did 20 episodes of that first season and I was like we're doing seasons, I cannot do this every week. So now I just yeah, we just broke it down, I'll take a couple months off, or sometimes longer, and then I'll come back with another season and do 10 episodes and that just kind of works better.

Marc Matthews: 28:29

I often say that to people. With regards to the podcast, and like when I started it out, I was very much of the mindset of like I'll get to start a podcast and having a background as you mentioned there like I've got a background in audio so I knew how to edit and all that sort of stuff, and I mean I can edit a podcast now like this one we're doing today. I could probably edit it in about 10, 15 minutes and get it up and done. But that's 128 episodes in now. Being able to do that. It's taken its time. But yeah, there's so much that goes into it that I didn't realize. And I started out doing it four nightly and then I moved to weekly and now I've sort of got it in a nice rhythm. But I'm having to play the game of where you sort of batching content and making sure I've got three weeks in the bank in case something comes up and stuff. But yeah, 100% and, as you mentioned there, with podcasting as well, it is consistency, just with anything.

Jen Fritz: 29:20

It is and it pays off. You've got to love it to do it, but it does pay off. And the thing with, like what you're saying you know you're creating this YouTube content and you have this podcast. That stuff is always there for people to find. So, like with my podcast, even when I'm not producing new episodes, I still have listeners because that back catalog is there, so there's always people finding it and discovering it, like music. Music's always there. It's always there for you to find and discover, right. So, and you never know when someone's gonna find it. So, yeah, that consistency does pay off in that way and it's good to think about it, like not be like well, I didn't get a lot of people listening to this last one and whatever, and when I started I was doing that.

Jen Fritz: 30:14

Now, like I look at it and people just go in and listen and we have so, like just it's incredible to me that somebody will discover it in some way and then listen all the way through to every episode and I don't know. I think that's great. I think that that's where consistency, that's where you win with consistency.

Marc Matthews: 30:37

Yeah, 100%. And like you mentioned then just now, with podcasts in particular, when you said you get to the five episodes, you've got that like podcast graveyard that you can see on in various places. I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not throwing shade on podcasters here, but you've got like podcasts where they get to five episodes. And then I think there was a big statistic a large number rather of podcasts that don't get past the 10th episode.

Marc Matthews: 31:04

Purely for that reason, if you get hung up on the listeners and I see this in groups on social media where you'll see a post and it says my podcast only, I've done 10, 20 episodes and I've only had 100 downloads and you say, well, I mean you are right at the beginning. Now you need to come back in sort of like 100 episodes time and then see where you're at. But yeah, and I think it's important that you say, not just with podcasting but with anything, I think with music as well is not to get too disheartened by numbers and metrics.

Jen Fritz: 31:32

No, especially in this day and age like where we see older music being rediscovered, like on TikTok. You know what I mean. Like there's a band here from Vancouver, mother Mother, who TikTok just loved an old like a 10 year old song of theirs and it blew up and cut to like a year after that happening. They're on a European tour opening up for Imagine Dragons. Like you don't know what's gonna happen, but you made that music and you have it on the platforms and you know a group of people found it and were like this is amazing, let's do some stuff with this on TikTok and that can just happen. But it's important to be ready for that when it happens, because you know there's another side of that story where Mother Mother could have been not even prepared, but they are a band that have been, you know, consistently performing live and are a killer, like one of the best live acts here in Canada. So when the call came they were ready to go.

Marc Matthews: 32:43

Yeah.

Jen Fritz: 32:43

I can imagine.

Marc Matthews: 32:45

It's really interesting that you mentioned that, because this is a conversation I had with someone the other week and it was a case of I was like well, what's your number? One bit of advice that you would give to yourself way back when that classic question, and it was be ready for when that call comes. You don't know when and it may never, but you need to be ready if a label turns round because you suddenly blow up and they say we need XYZ, or you have a song or a snippet that goes viral, and then somebody reaches out to you and says actually, have you got a folder of beats that I can go through because I really like your stuff? You need to be ready for that. You don't kind of want to be just thinking, oh. I think that comes down to where you need to take what you're doing seriously, I guess, isn't it? If you're gonna do it, you need to be serious about it.

Jen Fritz: 33:28

That's really true, and I mean that happens too with artists like I have friends that are music supervisors and that world works very quickly and so if they need a song, they need it right away. And if they go to an indie artist and are like, can you get me the song, blah blah, blah, blah, and that person doesn't have the right sorted out, that person doesn't even have the metadata on the song, they're gonna very quickly move on to the next thing. If you do not have your shit together and if you are not treating this like a business, you are very quickly gonna lose opportunities. Yeah, so be prepared is so, so important. It's true, and there's like a lot of artists right now I mean I know this is something that happened during the height of the pandemic is that a lot of the major labels were signing TikTok artists, like artists that were specifically had their music was blowing up on TikTok, they were getting it out there.

Jen Fritz: 34:59

And now we have artists that are from social media platforms being signed to majors, performing at huge festivals with absolutely zero experience in live performance. You can't just go on a stage and perform. My friends Now, like back in the day we had a system where you worked hard to get to that point. By the time you got to the point that you were signed, you had put in the miles, you had put in the work and you were ready. And now it's just like you can blow up so quickly that you have these artists that are just ill prepared for it. And I think that's why a lot of people are maybe dismayed about the state of music too, because they're just like it's not real, it's not authentic or whatever people like to complain about. There's plenty of great new artists out there. I obviously don't feel that way, but some people may say that.

Marc Matthews: 36:02

It's that classic, isn't it? You got to cut your teeth on the live circuit, being in a band, as I was many moons ago, and we were playing to the sort of sound engineer sound guy in his dill in a venue.

Marc Matthews: 36:13

You got to cut your teeth doing that and that way, when you do get to that position whereby you can play these, you've got that experience and you've also got quite thick skin at that point as well. Oh yeah, having done those shows. But yeah, I think you can get like somebody who's got that one song and then they hit the stage and then like no one knows, any of their other catalog or the rest of their catalog doesn't hold up against that one song. That's done really well.

Jen Fritz: 36:37

So yeah, I think I can see how you can become quite dis Disillusioned maybe with the music industry, but I think there's there's parts of it that are good as well, I guess well, I mean, yeah, it's just we're in a we're in a weird state right now, right like we have this one side of the industry that's still trying to do it, like it's a brick-and-mortar system like the olden times, and then we have this other side, that is the tech industry, and that's the problem. The problem is is, I think we all know that the music industry just Waited too long to accept the fact that it was going to become the tech like a more tech base that you know, like when Napster happened, they just dropped the ball. They tried to make things go the same way that they were for too long, and now we have artists making zero money and that's what happened. So, yeah, I it's. I think that that, honestly, is the For me, with my artists and my clients.

Jen Fritz: 37:41

The biggest problem I find Pardon me is lack of Lack of education about the music industry, as well as lack of digital literacy, and you know that comes into play a lot, especially with social media, especially with digital marketing, like, if you're doing ads Yourself, if you don't know how to do that, that can be overwhelming. It's really hard, but what I always say is you know, again, you're lucky because you have the entire Internet at your fingertips and there's so many resources to figure it out and you know. So what I do, if I don't know how to do something, is, you know, google it or go to YouTube, or even tiktok has lots of music education on it as well. So if you're like, oh my god, I don't know how to do my Instagram ads, how do I set up YouTube ads? Ah, you can really quickly figure out how to do it, you know yeah, most certainly.

Marc Matthews: 38:46

Like you say, everything's at your fingertips, simply with YouTube, I mean, you can find pretty much all there, anything you want, yeah, yeah, 100% it's all there. Digital literacy is really interesting because I was once upon a time a teacher and I was. I used to teach computer science and music and Digital literacy was huge and I was a huge, massive advocate of that, specifically over here in the UK and obviously it's big everywhere. But and I couldn't stress enough how important it was for people to have digital literacy and this was pre-pandemic and then the pandemic here, and then I was like my case in point right now, like people need to know, like and that sort of Expedited the process of people becoming digit, digitally literate, but it's still the case. Now I find I don't know, maybe it's, maybe it's individuals like to bury their head in the sand and thing. Actually, I don't want to know there is a lot of that.

Jen Fritz: 39:37

There's a lot of that too, but I mean, I have it like every day with my clients. I have it, you know, I have to know it because of the job I have. So I am constantly educating myself so that I can be good at my job. That's, that's what I do and I think that artists need to think about it that way as well. Again, it's 2024. I'm sorry, I apologize for all of this stuff that you have to do, but this is the world you live in. Yeah, it would have been better if it was the 80s and you could sit back, but that's not. That's not how it is. And Again, there's, there's, there's so many resources and actually, you know, that's the biggest reason that we started the FM podcast.

Jen Fritz: 40:24

Like I started it, you know, mostly for you know it's great marketing for my business, fritz media. So it kind of started for that. It was kind of an extension. A good way to market the business and then to is education, because I just was like I need to have a place where I can point artists to like you know not to do that here. Great, I got a great episode on that and you know there's lots of great podcasts out there that Will teach you as well, like you have one. There's the new business, new music business one with Ari Hurst, and it's really good to I listen to that. I learned a lot on on on that one too, and there's like tons of others. So, yeah you, it's just, it is a head and a cent thing, I think too, because they're just like, oh my god, I don't want to learn how to do this or I don't, I don't understand how to do Instagram or like.

Marc Matthews: 41:22

It's just and I'm just like I'm sorry, but you have to, so if not, maybe go sell insurance, because I, you know, I, this is the job I think maybe some of it also comes down to, and I, I'm Hold my hands up to this I watch videos at 1.5 speed, 1.75, and I want everything immediate. I want the answer now and I think there's an element maybe of with particular job I'm not gonna do any shade on generations and stuff, but like, if it doesn't happen right away, then I don't want to know sort of thing. Like I want that immediate return on my investment, whereas, like we were saying earlier to consistency, just keep doing what you're doing. Eventually, yeah, it will pay off.

Jen Fritz: 42:08

That's a hundred percent true, and I I get that a lot, particularly when artists hire us to do publicity. To use your pie chart analogy, again, if you're hiring a publicist, that's one piece of the pie in selling your music like. It's not like you hire a publicist and everything happens. That's just one small thing to help with the marketing of your music. There's like a million other things that you're doing. There's like a million other things that have to go along with that and you know, if you had a record label, they would do those things for you. But if you don't, that means you have to do them and you know a lot of that is gonna fall by the wayside because you're just not gonna be able to do it. But you know, most artists can't afford to hire a publicist, so that's usually like the first thing that they'll do. They'll they'll hire a publicist and then they'll be like We'll run an incredible campaign for them and then they'll be like well, nothing happened, like what? Like what you know I have, like it did. You know? They just I don't know what they thought would happen, but it certainly was not gonna be the thing like maybe they thought they would get like way more Instagram followers or, you know, more Spotify listens than they actually did.

Jen Fritz: 43:24

And the thing with publicity is publicity is like Me getting people to listen to your music and write about it, or me getting people to listen to your music and add it to To their playlist, or you know, it's like I'm helping get the word out there about you. It it's not a one-to-one thing and it and it never has been like if If you were on Jimmy Kimmel and did a live performance I Mean now is Different, but even back in the day, that didn't on hundred percent necessarily agree that you were suddenly gonna sell millions of albums. It's like that one thing doesn't all of a sudden Do something for you and a lot of younger artists get stuck in that. They're like, but I paying you money, like where's my superstar? Them, how come? And, and I'm like, listen, we have this incredible campaign.

Jen Fritz: 44:21

I introduced your music to a lot of different people. They wrote wonderful things about it on their blog or you know, newspaper, where. Wherever they, they did this and that's great, that's fantastic. Uh, you know, down the road that may get you more fans, but it doesn't like. It's like, it's hard. You know what I mean. Like it it's hard.

Jen Fritz: 44:47

It's all part of the process, you know, and it doesn't come right away. I mean it can for some people for sure, but you know it's a long slog. So again we come back to the question why are you doing this? Because if it's to be famous, well, you know that's. It's not gonna work out for you.

Jen Fritz: 45:13

Yeah but if you just want to get your, music out there if you are creating like most artists I I Work with, they just have something to say and they want to get it out there, and so that's what they're doing. So you start there, you create your art, you put it out there and then you know you hire someone like me. I do my best to make sure people listen to it and you know, you know, write nice things about it or tell other people about it, do interviews with you all of those lovely sorts of things to and all of that helps, right, all of that helps to get it out there and to get other people to discover you, because that's getting harder and harder, right, musical discovery. I'll ask you a question how do you find new music?

Marc Matthews: 46:02

I find a new music. At the moment, I would say I go on Spotify and then I late. I've been using the Spotify DJ filter filter feature, which curates what it thinks I want to listen to, based on my previous. So he's using artificial intelligence, basically. So I've been using that and there's that and then its recommendations from friends. So it's a mixture of the two, but I would say it's heavily in favor of Of artificial intelligence on Spotify.

Jen Fritz: 46:31

Yeah, I think a lot of people find it that way. Yeah, for me it's Honestly like TV shows or movies like I shazam all the time. I'm always shazamming. I'm like, oh my god, what's that song? And it's like a song I never heard from like ten years ago, but it's so good.

Marc Matthews: 46:50

She jams an interesting one. I don't know if it's as prevalent over here, because I look at my Apple podcast stats and I see every now and again I get shazammed and I was like, and I keep questioning myself. I'm like, does shamsham still exist? Obviously it does. Maybe I'm just way out of touch with shazam, but yeah, I suppose I.

Marc Matthews: 47:09

I used to find a lot of music via TV and film, but I would say select. I think it's because I spend more time now in the studio and when I'm doing admin bits and pieces. I've just got Spotify on and then I'll do what is it release, latest releases or whatever it's called, and I have that come through as well and I find a lot that way. Um, youtube's quite good as well. I find when YouTube creates a mix for you based on what you've been listening to previously, and I often find that I go down a rabbit hole of sort of older music on YouTube versus Spotify it's modern. I say modern, not modern, but new music, yeah, whereas on YouTube it was into me old, because I like metal, rock and classic rock and stuff, and it'll bring up a lot of that, but no, it's interesting. You mentioned Shazam. Yeah, shazam.

Jen Fritz: 47:53

Yeah, that's it. And also I listen to a lot of like podcasts, like music podcasts. You know there's a NPR, the American Public Radio Station has a new Music Friday podcast that comes out every Friday and I listen to it religiously every Friday because it's just like here's some of the albums that are out this week and it just kind of keeps me a little current. So I, because you know there's so much that sometimes I'm just like who's this now?

Marc Matthews: 48:20

Like yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. I do that with Radio One over here, just so I know. I mean, for the most part, what they play on Radio One I'm not a massive fan of, but I like to know what the current music trends are and where the music industry is going in terms of what people are listening to. And occasionally I hear something I'm like I really like that and then I go and research it and a lot of the time I'll write maybe write a song in that sort of format.

Jen Fritz: 48:47

But I like Radio Six. I think that's a good one. I don't know if I've listened to have I listened to Radio Six?

Marc Matthews: 48:53

I've got Radio Six, Radio Four. What do they say in Radio Six?

Jen Fritz: 48:56

Radio Six is like more like alternativey sort of.

Marc Matthews: 49:01

Okay.

Jen Fritz: 49:02

I think that's what it is.

Marc Matthews: 49:03

I don't think I've ever listened. I didn't even know that this is going to sound really bad. I didn't even know there was a Radio Six.

Jen Fritz: 49:07

I thought it went as far as Radio Five which was live sport. Yeah, it's, bbc sounds. It's. Yeah, oh right, bbc sounds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marc Matthews: 49:19

Yeah, okay, yeah.

Jen Fritz: 49:21

There's always like, like I discover, like I discover, because to me it's like again, we're probably getting I know it's more of a global industry but it's like obviously you're going to get different stuff than you're going to hear, different things than we might hear, right? So it's kind of always been that way. I like to know what's going on in the UK.

Marc Matthews: 49:40

So it's interesting, the music industry over here. I'm always intrigued by the radio stations. I, admittedly, I'll hold my hands in the air and say I don't listen to any American radio stations. Maybe I should, but I'm always intrigued in terms of how they work and I'm maybe going to do a bit of research. So, if you can recommend any, or Canadian ones, rather any Canadian radio stations that are worth listening to to keep my ear to the ground of what's going on, yeah, I don't listen to a lot of commercial radio for one, and I'm like a podcast geek, so I honestly it's music or podcasts when I'm listening to anything.

Jen Fritz: 50:19

Well, I listen to radio when I'm in my car. That's the one time I'll actually listen to like an actual radio station and I'll just like surf, all of like the top 40 in rock stations to see what's happening. And you know, sometimes I'll be like what the hell's that? I don't even know what that is.

Marc Matthews: 50:39

I used to do that when I had a DAB radio in my car. But I've got this old car now and then it's so shit. The radio is basically just AM, an FM radio. So I've basically got the local radio station or I've got like radio one or something like that, which I guess in a way kind of makes me listen to more. If I didn't have that then I'd be listening to something totally different. But like I think when I'm out and about walking or I'm at the gym it's podcast.

Jen Fritz: 51:04

Yeah, same.

Marc Matthews: 51:05

When I'm in the studio working, it's music from Spotify, so that's that's kind of what the way I balance it. And then in the car, like you, I listen to commercial radio, so maybe that's a podcast or thing.

Jen Fritz: 51:14

Yeah, maybe that must be it, yeah.

Marc Matthews: 51:18

Yeah, I got another interview with another podcast later this week, so I'll ask the question in terms of that's a really good one actually, what they listen to. It's quite interesting, jen, I realize we're approaching 50 minutes now and I think it'd be a good opportunity maybe if you could just talk a bit about what you do for its media and then maybe where our audience can find you.

Jen Fritz: 51:36

Well, we do mostly publicity campaigns for artists. What that means is, if you have a new single or a new album coming out and you're looking for someone to help you promote it, you would contact us. We have lots of great different campaigns. Our most popular ones are single campaigns. At the moment, just because you know, we're living in a single based sort of economy with the music industry, I think right now there's people that are less interested in albums. I hope that that does change. But, yeah, I would say in the last couple of years I've noticed that most of our we have more people coming that are more interested in doing single release. Specifically, if we do album campaigns, you know, like we do either three month or six month, we can do a longer one, but if we do like a three month, you can release two singles, you know, leading up to the album release and we help you promote the singles as well as the album. And you know, depending on your campaign, we're probably mostly going to be pitching to online outlets, music blogs, as well as Spotify user generated playlists not the editorial, but the Spotify user generated playlists, because every little bit helps.

Jen Fritz: 52:59

I believe we are a Canadian publicity music publicity company, but we do have a global reach, and I think that you'll find that most publicity companies do this now, because there's only so many places I can pitch, you know.

Jen Fritz: 53:16

But I can also pitch places in the UK, I can also pitch places in the US where I think that they might be interested in an artist's music. So, yeah, that's basically it. If you're looking to get more people to listen to your music, that's what we do. We're just, we want people to know about you and we want them to write nice things about you, and then what happens is you can share those nice things on your social media and say, oh my God, look at what this blog said about me. They said I'm amazing because that's all part of it, and you know, when you have an active campaign going, that's continuous content coming your way that you can share on your socials as well. The artist gets shy about that too. It's so weird. They're just like I don't want to share another thing and it's like well, you know, you don't have to share everything, but let people know stuff's happening.

Marc Matthews: 54:14

Yeah, celebrate your success.

Jen Fritz: 54:17

Yeah, oh yeah, I was gonna. I'll just end it. We're at fritzmediaca. If you want to find us and if you want to listen to our podcast, it's thefmpodcastcom.

Marc Matthews: 54:29

Lovely stuff. I'll put links to both of those in the episode description so folks do go and check out the Brilliant Podcast and also, if you are releasing a single and you want that help, make sure you go and check out fritzmedia. I highly recommend Jen. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you today. It's been great to talk social media and sort of music marketing. It's the first one of the year, so and I always find it really interesting. It's really really interesting to see where what I'm seeing is the same as what sort of someone who's a professional and working day to day in that industry is seeing something similar, which is kind of good for me because it makes me think actually, maybe I'm onto something on the right track yeah, you feel better.

Jen Fritz: 55:07

You're like oh, maybe I do know.

Marc Matthews: 55:09

Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly that, exactly. I really like what you said about pulling back from social media, because I found myself doing it, and the fact that you've mentioned it now makes me think. Actually, I'm not the only one?

Jen Fritz: 55:20

Oh, you're not. Let me tell you, you are not the only one.

Marc Matthews: 55:23

Yeah, fantastic stuff. Well, I will leave you now because I appreciate it. It's early in the day where you are, so you can enjoy the rest of your day and I'm going to go and have some dinner. So it's been absolutely great chatting with you and I will catch up with you soon.