#77: Get Better at Songwriting: Essential Sound Design and Songwriting Tips You Need to Know | Dan Fur

Join me in this exciting and informative episode where I sit down with Dan Fur of Dan Fur Productions to discuss some of the most essential sound design and songwriting tips that will help you get better at songwriting. As an experienced mentor, producer, mix engineer, and sound designer, Dan shares valuable insights on how to improve your music production skills.

We delve into the importance of having a mentor, and how it can help you grow and develop your skills as a musician. Dan also shares tips on revamping your songwriting process, including the most crucial step that many musicians tend to overlook.

We also discuss the world of sound sampling and synthesis and how you can get started in sound design. Dan shares his thoughts on whether you should focus on sound design during the songwriting process and how to overcome imposter syndrome as a musician.

We also talk about the significance of having a process and systems in songwriting and why it's essential to avoid wasting time on the last 5% of your project.

Finally, Dan sheds light on the critical part of sound design and explains the key elements of sound design. So whether you want to know how beginners start songwriting or you're an experienced producer looking to improve your skills, this episode is packed with valuable insights that you don't want to miss.

Click here, to follow Dan Fur: https://linktr.ee/danfurmusic

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Transcript

0:01

Hey, inside the mixed podcast fans, it's Kev Crane, aka the singing Plumber. If you'd like to gimme a follow on Instagram, please do and this depart my new single Dicho minutes coming out on April the 14th. Album's coming out. May the first you are listening to the Inside the Mixed Podcast is your host, Mark Matthews.

Marc Matthews: 0:19

Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. I'm Mark Matthews, your host, musician, producer, and mix and mastering engineer. You've come to the right place if you want to know more about your favorite synth music artists, music, engineering and production, songwriting, and the music industry. I've been writing, producing, mixing, and mastering music for over 15 years, and I wanna share what I've learned with you. Hey folks, and welcome back to the Inside The Mix podcast. If you are a new listener to the podcast, welcome and don't forget to hit that subscribe button. And if you're a returning listener, welcome back in this episode. I'm very excited to welcome my deck, my guest today. Now I got my words around the wrong way there, Dan Fir. So a bit about Dan. He provides mixing, mastering, and mentorship to hundreds of producers, um, to have running, uh, ADR sessions as well for such shows as Stranger Things. And, uh, Mrs. Marvel, which we'll dive into in a bit later. Uh, Dan works at a local post-production studio, cord precursor productions and runs his own studio called Dan Fur Productions, which focuses on helping electronic musicians develop a process that allows them to make more of the music they want. And today, or rather, in this episode, Dan is gonna share with us his thoughts on the role of mentoring and also a recent change in his production and songwriting process at which we were discussing off there. And maybe if we have time, some mixing and mastering tips. So Dan, thanks for joining me today. And how are you?

Dan Fur: 1:44

Uh, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Mark. This is, uh, this has been a delight. I know. It's, uh, it's been a long time coming and I've been looking forward to the date in my calendar for a while now. Yeah. So thanks for having

Marc Matthews: 1:53

me. Fantastic. Yeah, no, my pleasure. It has been a long time coming, um, and I'm looking forward to this from a Yeah. Cause I know you're an advocate of San Synthesis and sampling, so it's gonna be cool to. To get some, some info on that. But what I thought would be quite cool to start off with is, um, Dan, for production, so I mentioned there you ran your own studio where you focus on helping other electronic musicians. Um, can you tell our audience, cuz it's not something we really discussed a great deal about on the podcast and the role of a mentor and what it is that you actually do for, uh, up and coming or established even producers.

Dan Fur: 2:26

Yeah. So in order to sort of explain that, I, I want to sort of explain a story. How I got started and really I was like everybody else at the beginning, an avid self-learner, went on YouTube, went on every sort of course I could find that was within a reasonable price range. And just learnt and learnt and learnt and. I thought I was doing pretty great. I thought I was doing wonderful and, and by all means I was. But then, you know, I sort of went to this workshop and, and, and was introduced to, you know, who I view as my current mentor, who is sort of the, the owner of Precursor Productions, the post studio that you mentioned a little bit before. And his backstory is, and his roots are actually, he used to play, you know, underground shows and it like, You know, early, early nineties techno was, was was his jam kind of thing. So he comes from an early era of the electronic music scene and that's sort of how we, we bridged our gap and connected. And I, at the very beginning, I was like, I will be a broom boy in exchange to be able to watch you work, kind of thing. And, uh, like anybody at first having never met me, he's like, all right, well, Let's have a chat and, uh, and so that chat led into more chats and, and hovering and hanging and, you know, essentially paying for mentorship is really what it all led down to. And that was really the, the liminal and the, and the transitional moment in. My skills and, and my abilities really. And it was, you know, entirely due to the reality that you don't know what you don't know. And, and that's something that's so hard to, to understand and to, to process at the beginning because everything is available online and the resources are out there. But the, the difficulty becomes navigating it and sorting through the weeds and understanding, well, what is relevant, what. You know, not only good information, but good in information that is pertinent to you. Not every, every bit of insight and information is gonna be the, the best case scenario for your system and, and your process. And, and, and that's sort of where, you know, mentorship grabbed me and was like, Hey, you, you're doing this right and you think you're doing this right, but here is, you know, someone with 20 years post experience being like, Hey, this is. How I've seen it done in numerous times in the past. And again, it comes down to you just don't know what you don't know. And uh, and that was really the, you know, the, the, the, the concept that sort of brought it all forward because that's, that changed my life. And, and before that I never really viewed this as more of a, more than a hobby. And as soon as I got that mentorship, not only did my skills develop, How I viewed what those skills were and my relationship with those skills completely redeveloped as well. And, and so that's sort of what I try and instill in my mentorship a lot more is Sure. The technical stuff, we can go into details about that all night and day, but the resources are out there. I I, you know, I oftentimes like to sort of spend the time a little bit more focused on the, the. Your, your relationship and, and overcoming really imposter syndrome, which is kind of the biggest issue that we all face, and it's a very challenging one. Mm-hmm. And, and so that's kind of where I, I view the most important role of, of mentorship is not necessarily in a technical abilities because that. There's a lot of, there's a lot of those resources out there and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, they're not hard to find these days, but understanding how to sort through those re resources and, and pick you back up when you kind of went down the wrong rabbit hole. Cuz we're all gonna do that. We're all gonna think that this is a valuable skill that we wanna sort of develop and grow for a while. And then maybe we'll spend way too much time on that and realize, wow, that was just a wasted effort. Uh, why did I, you know, and then you sink down and you sink down and being able to pick yourself back up and move from that. Is essential, you know, otherwise it's gonna be over.

Marc Matthews: 6:23

Yeah. Yeah. Um, mentorship is, is massively important, I think, and I think it's great what you said there about how you started, um, essentially like the runner, the T boy, just to. To get your foot in the door, get yourself a mentor, and then yeah. I, I know totally echo what you said there about the, the wealth of information that is available online, and I've said it on a few episodes of the podcast, and being able to navigate through all that information to the right pertinent information to you and having somebody. There to help you navigate that can save you so much time and, and can accelerate you on. It kind of reminds me of the, the time when I, I'm a guitarist and I was playing guitar and I was self-taught and I was self-taught for ages, and then I went to a studio to record an album, realized that my technique was, was terrible, and then when I got a lesson. And then through that coaching, I guess you call it from, from tutoring, I actually, I just saw my, my growth IT and mentoring is huge. And like I said, afa, it's not something we discussed massively on this show. With regards to mentoring, cuz it is, is incredibly important you offer mentoring yourself. If you are an individual looking for mentoring, what qualities would you look for in a mentor?

Dan Fur: 7:35

I would say the biggest one is, In a mentor or a mentee, essentially. So like as, as someone looking to find a mentor? Yeah, yeah. Essentially. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I would definitely say. Your relationship with them. Right, because I myself have, like I say, that one mentor, um, he has been essentially my audio rock since, since day one. But you know, of course, like any other, I, I have definitely tried to branch out and tried to find other. Other mentors and other people that can, you know, fill gaps and, and, and fill in another knowledge because I'm a firm believer that you can learn a lot from everybody at, at any skill level. So mentors can, can come in all shapes and sizes and and and whatever else. So I've definitely gone out, you know, experimenting with a couple of others and I feel like what it comes down to is, How you have a personal connection with them is, is really the biggest thing. And, and truly having the confidence that they want what's best for you, which is kind of a hard thing to say, right? Like how do you look for that in a mentor without actually having some sessions and some conversations with them? Um, and, and that definitely becomes a little bit of a challenge, but, You know, there definitely are some, some yellow flags that we can all pick on very quickly when it seems like, okay, this guy is asking questions that seem to just be revolved around money and what, you know, and, and, and them and their system and their structure. And, and I would say the biggest quality is try to find someone that actually values you and sees potential in you and actually wants what's best for you and, and, and is going to try and follow along with that. And like I say, yeah, that is a. Challenging reality to look for and actually find, cuz everybody's who's honest is gonna front that and everybody who's not is gonna try and fake that.

Marc Matthews: 9:18

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You wanna find someone who's got like a vest, you can see a vested interest in you and your progression, uh, rather than, like you say, rather than the, the, the dollar signs of the pound signs that

Dan Fur: 9:29

we say. And, and you know, it also, it also comes down to what do you wanna necessarily do and. You know, having a mentor that obviously has the skills that you want to learn is, is, is everything right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, not one, not one mentor is gonna fill every single role, right? You're gonna, if, if you wanted to say, start a mixing business, you should realistically have a business mentor and maybe an audio mentor or like a mastermind group or something to be able to get resources from there, right? But I think the idea that one mentor is gonna fit all your shoes is probably going to leave you lacking in some areas.

Marc Matthews: 10:03

Mm mm That's, it's a good thought actually. I never considered it that way. Um, having, almost like having multiple mentors, cuz as you say there, you, you want somebody to fill that particular gap in whatever it is that you are doing. Yeah. Very interesting. I never thought, never thought of having multiple mentors.

Dan Fur: 10:18

Was. Yeah. Yeah. No, and, and, and like I say, mentors can come in all shapes and sizes, right? There can be mentors that you pay for, but there can also just be people that you view that you have strong relationships for, that you actually go for, for guidance and Right. You know, not every moment with them may be a mentorship moment, but being able to differentiate, you know, when you're kind of having those, those mentorship moments versus just, you know, a, a standard relationship. There's so much to learn in every conversation and every rea in, in, in every instance. And, and, and being able to grasp as much of that as possible is really the best way to go. And, and, and, and, you know, understanding that, you know, mentors can come in all sizes. Obviously not everybody is going to be a mentor and not every relationship is going to have mentorship moments. There definitely are, you know, characteristics and qualities that you need to be there to be able to, you know, maintain that mentorship experience. But there definitely. A lot of people in your life that, you know, I find when people tell me about them, I'm like, well, that right there is a mentor. You know, you're telling me you do have a couple more, but they're not really perceiving them as mentors and therefore they're not really able to fully grasp the experience and those mentorship moments when people are, you know, throwing information at them kind of thing. And we've all been guilty about that before, but being able to pick up on that more and more is going to really enhance your skills and your abilities just to, to grow as an individual and as your.

Marc Matthews: 11:37

Yeah, it's sort of identifying when it is you're actually being in, in men, sort in a way, or when that coaching's happened. Yeah. That's fantastic advice. Yeah,

Dan Fur: 11:47

it's great. Yeah. As, and as for, you know, when it comes to looking for paid mentorship, that's definitely a little bit more tricky, you know, cuz there is a lot of dedicated, you know, coaching businesses that, uh, you know, I personally have no idea how, how they, how they function or how they run. So I really cannot speak on. Mm-hmm. On any of their, their behalfs. But they do seem very heavily marketed and produced. And you gotta wonder, well, what's, what's their, what's their process? You know, what's their, what's their system? And, and, and is it a numbers game for them or are they actually caring? And I think a lot of 'em actually do care, right. Like, you know. Yeah. But, but again, it's, it's, it's so hard to gauge and that, and that's why I think, you know, the best thing you can do is try and have just a meet and greet conversation before you ever have any money. And I think if a mentor's unwilling to do that, Then, you know, like even like a five, 10 minute conversation meet and greet 15, it doesn't have to be a full hour of their time or whatever. But, you know, cuz me, as, as someone who takes on mentors is I wanna actually have an understanding of who you are as an individual. And, you know, there are certain characteristics that I I, I would like you to have ideally, you know, you, you gotta be autonomous, you gotta be self-driven and working because at the end of the day, I want to get, I wanna allow you to get the most out of this experience. And if you're gonna kind of come back, I, I found the students. Every week when I'm like, okay, well if you wanna achieve these goals, we're gonna kind of need to follow along with this and we're gonna need to do. And then week after week they come back, ah, you know, I didn't quite have the time to do this. I didn't quite have the time to do this. They're like, okay. You know, that's, that's fine. Everybody gets busy. But at the end of the day, that is just a sacrifice that won't allow you to quite meet your goals. And usually those relationships tend to, well not relationships, but those mentorship experience tend to fizzle off because Yeah. You know, it sort of gets very cyclical where I'm like, this is kind of what you need to do. This is where we need to be going and, and, and this isn't something I can do for you, kind of thing. And, and, and. Me as a mentor, I love to have these, these pre-conversations. I will have always have like a free 30 minute conversation with someone just to make sure that A, they understand who I am and feel like I have something to offer them. But B, make sure that I actually feel like I have something of value to offer them. Um, and, and, and we're gonna actually connect and, and have a relationship that's gonna benefit both of us, because that's what I want out of every, every relat.

Marc Matthews: 14:01

Yeah, it's gotta be a good fit for both parties, doesn't it ultimately. Mm-hmm. Um, and then one of my questions leading on from that was gonna be to do with maybe like amber or red flags when it comes to mentees. So you mentioned there about what sounded like, um, organization and time management probably is, sounds like it'd be a big one. And, and commitment I guess as well. Would you say those are like the biggest for one way, for want of a better way of putting it? Red flags where you, from your perspective as a.

Dan Fur: 14:29

I would definitely say the biggest thing for me is communication. Okay. If the communication is very wishy washy and seemingly dishonest and distant, then that is, um, that's a big yellow red flag to me. And I, I, I, I personally find time and, you know, sometimes not necessarily responding in, in a timely manner can definitely be a sign of that. Mm-hmm. But I think there are other, other aspects in, in terms of conversation. You know, how, how, how, how polite and how, how cordial they are with you. How, how they sort of are, you know, when they kind of get busy and go distant for a while, are they willing to go above and beyond to sort of make up and be like, Hey, you know, I understand we kind of, uh, I've been a little bit on the unaware, let's have a, a good hour long chat to catch up, or let's have something just to sort of, you know, and, and, and again, that, that comes down. As a, as a consumer, if time is much more of a factor, then, then that's a conversation you always need to have upfront. And that's something that I always like to discuss in those meetings and in that intro session as well, is what kind of deadlines and timelines are you looking for? Cuz then again, I can know, do I have the time to commit to be able to give you what you need to achieve those goals. And so, you know, that's, that's definitely the, the biggest thing for me is, is communication and being able, Sort out issues before they happen, as well as when they happen and understanding that, you know, there doesn't need to be a party at fault. That's going to take blame and just un you know, having that rock solid communication and so, you know, go ghosting someone and not really being respectful about it. Definitely a red flag, but someone going, you know, not responding for a couple of days in, in, in my mind, as long as they make up for it and justify it. Because at the end of the end of the day, a lot of what we're working with is musicians and artists and they have. Randomly fickle schedules, right. Randomly fickle, you know, inspiration times where they're like, oh, I just gotta turn phone off, go zoom, go whatever, and get lost for weeks at a time. Who knows? Or they're touring or whatever the case might happen, right. So, you know, in, in my sense, I'm a lot more understanding that as long as there, there's an element of respect and forgiveness to, to the communication at all elements, at all time. And, and, and, and there are, you know, the. There, there is a just a strong level of communication I would see. And, and, and if you don't feel like the communication is comfortable for you, then that's probably a sign that, you know, you, you and them may not have the best relationship and, and that is definitely gonna translate into the mentorship experience not being as rock solid as you might want it to be.

Marc Matthews: 17:26

Yeah. And I think those are transferrable as well when it comes to actually working with individuals when you are working on a mix or some sort of music production based project as well. And it's something that I would look out for if someone was to. Get in contact with me in regards to mixing or production or something like that would be communication. If, if it, if, if that, if they do go ghost, which does happen, uh, unfortunately, um, as part of the mixing when you do have clients committed, want mixing or request information on your service. So I totally agree with that. And there it is. It's cross I was gonna say platform. Yeah. We, we roll with that cross platform as well. It sort of transcends other aspects of the music. So what I'd like to move on to now then with was what we were chatting about off air is your songwriting process. So you mentioned that you've recently reevaluated or taken a step back and, uh, sort of looked at your processes and you've changed them. Yeah. Can you tell our audience a bit about how you've made that change and what it consists of?

Dan Fur: 18:22

Yeah, so in, in on paper, the change. As simple as adding an extra step, but obviously in your mind it's like this whole groundbreaking realization where you're like, wow, how did I not see this before? And so, you know, I come from a background of the reason why I ever fell in love with sound in the first place was, you know, I don't know how many years back discovered what a synthesizer was and mind was blown. I was like, The sound that I remember growing up from all the songs, and I just didn't understand what that sound was. You know, like I'd heard us in numerous, numerous times and countless songs, but I'd never fully understood what it was. And then I learned what it was. I was like, wow, this, this is something that I need to invest a little bit more time in. And so synthesizers have always been, like I say, the root. And my studio entirely around me is basically built to be more of a synth recording studio mastering suite than, than than a post-production studio in any way, shape or form. And, you know, I do my post at the studio for the most part. But so, so because of that, my process was very much trying to, you know, integrate hardware and software in a very cordial manner. And, There was a, there was a def definite section where I sort of distanced myself entirely from the laptop and just did, you know, hardware jams sequence entirely, you know, in, in the realm of the analog and, and hardware world. Um, and then obviously created a lot of jams where it was just, just in the computer and sort of the past, you know, two years I guess, was, was bridging the. The build between the two of 'em. And so my process ended up becoming, you know, where, where I landed on last year, which which felt very comfortable, was starting off in the. Hardware domain where, you know, I'm, I'm, it's a lot more hybrid set up now where I'm using Ableton as sort of the most master sequencer. So it's very much a hybrid setup, but the sound sources initially are entirely hardware To be able to have that tactile, I like to dance around and jam while I'm experiencing it, really makes it feel a lot more organic for me. And then what'll happen is once I kind of get the skeleton out and looped, I'll sort of play that loop skeleton into a song and record the bass idea. Um, and. What I used to essentially do was basically call it that, add some extra vsts, um, and some, some layers to sort of fill up the space, mix it and, and sort of move on. Um, but then I kind of realized once that I was like, okay, well how much editing am I necessarily doing in this? Once I feel like I've sound design things, how much editing am I, am I doing? And then I've started to think about it. I'm like, Pretty much next to nothing unless I hear a major problem. And then I sort of started thinking about it a little bit more and I was like, well, what do I do at, you know, at, at the studio for post-production? Most of, most of the time it's editing, it's sound effects, editing dialogue, editing, um, just fine precise chopping and maneuvering audio clips. And I was like, well, if this is the one skill that, you know, apart from sound design, that I've probably actually put the 10,000 hours. Why am I not using this in my songwriting process? Right? And, and as soon as I did that, I sort of really, especially as someone who, who's delved into the world of modular and, and all sorts of random sound design elements, you know, there's so many unexpected magical moments that happen within the realm of synthesis. You know, modular aside, even just like your standard vsts, you can get some absolutely crazy, unexpected, otherworldly things that. You have no predictability of. And what I realized was, and this is probably an obvious reality to some, and, and, and that it kind of is, but I kind of realized is that, well, if these moments are, you know, so chaotic and so unpredictable, Well then editing is gonna give me a really easy way to sort of make them a little bit more predictable and a little bit more, more new verbal. And, and then, so really all I really did was kept my songwriting process the same, but added that one extra step. And it was kind of this really enlightening moment where I was like, well, what other skills am I neglecting that I, that I have in my back pocket that I've been using, you know, for the, for the, the past couple of years that I've just. Neglecting to even consider in my songwriting process. And, uh, and, and, and I'm a very big believer of process is, is everything. I don't go into my do with the function of what song do I write, how do I want to do it? I go, what are the rules I wanna set in place? And what sort of process do I want to follow to be able to make sure that decisions are somewhat made for me so that I can just groove and create? Because once the parameters and once the process is set in motion, I don't have to think I can just. And let the process unfold. And that's really, you know, been the biggest game changer for me as, as far as songwriting goes, is started focusing way more on the process than the actual song. And then as soon as I get the process, it's kind of just like a little formula. You, you throw in some themes, you throw in some ideas about what, what is your inspiration for that song or for that. Then you just go through the steps and it's, you know, you never get to that point where you're stuck because a lot of moments happen when in songwriting, where you kind of get to that step where you're like, okay, well where do I take it from here? And when your process is rock solid, whenever you get to those moments of where do I take it from here, usually that means you're done the step that you were working on, and it's time to move on to the next step. And, and that's really what, to me, a rock solid process was. So making this big groundbreaking change, where I added this final step of editing was, like I say, it wasn't shaking things up or completely rewriting my process, but it was, you know, a good internal look of what skills have I been neglecting and how can I. Add an extra element of not only fine tune polish, but completely reshaped sounds that I had thought I had gotten where I want to be able to, you know, make the bridge section still cohesive to the, the, the main drop that I had. But still way different due to the editing cuz especially, you know, on the Elma modular, you can't save your patches. You know, even with, with some of the digital modules, if you turn the thing on and off, the things reset and you know, you gotta know exactly where the things were and it's, it's. Never gonna, never gonna be quite exactly the same. And so oftentimes that moment is lost forever. And you know, I, I, among many others, view that as one of the beautiful things about synthesis, right? That's being able to have that sound there and then gone forever is, Such a beautiful reality, but it also creates a lot of problems when it comes to, um, you know, the songwriting process and when you feel like you had a great loop, but you don't really know where to take it, and you don't really know where to go from there. And, uh, and, and yeah, adding that extra step to my process really wasn't a crazy groundbreaking step, but it made it just that much easier to be like, okay, well now I feel like I'm stuck, but the song's not quite done. Well, let's just go do some fine little fine tune edits and, and polishing things to move things around, to create little, you know, flutters and, and whirls and percussive elements of sounds that I already had created that are already in the mix. So I know they're gonna gel. I know they're gonna work. They're already designed to sort of work there and they're already in the song. And so, you know, it, it's, it's just really given me another opportunity that whenever I feel. Okay, well move on to the next step. Ooh, I'm stuck. But the song still doesn't quite feel polished. Well then now I have that extra step to be like, all right, well here's one final little tool in the toolbox to really go through with a fine tooth comb and, um, get it that much closer to where I want it to be.

Marc Matthews: 26:02

Yeah. I really like what you said there about processes and having that process, that songwriting process, and it's almost like for one of a better way of putting it, like a formula and Yeah. Using that to. Because I know what it's like, what you mentioned there right at the beginning about how you could look at a D W. I remember doing it years ago and just sitting there thinking, right, let's write a song without any fun process or any thought going into it. I'm thinking, right, okay. And hoping that at some point, inspiration's gonna strike and I'm gonna suddenly come out with something, but actually having a process. So with that process then, is it almost like a checklist that you follow when it comes. So, or can you sort of like flick between

Dan Fur: 26:40

saying, so that's, that's the real, that's the biggest challenge about process for me is it all comes down to your process needs to be rigid enough that you always know when you're done a step and when you need to move on to a next step. But flexible enough that you can still. Fiddle things around and sort of skip steps, go back steps and sort of do what you necessarily want to do and sometimes avoid steps altogether if you, if you don't feel like they suit the occasion. And so that, you know, makes it a very hard concept, right? Because then your process is never quite the exact same. And that's why I like to have more of a. General process in the way my workflow is set up and the way the studio is set up and the way things are. So process, you know, to me is more than just a checklist of I do this, this, and this. It's the entire workflow of how you engage with your environment, how your things are cabled and set up how you understand, um, what tools do what and having a very strong and, and, and good understanding of what, what machines and, and what ideas are going to. Make a good relationship with each other because, you know, there's, especially if you're dealing with a hybrid, hybrid analog setup, like, like I'm dealing with, and like a lot of, a lot of synth producers I know are, because let's face it, we all love synths. Um, that definitely gives you a lot of tactile opportunity and a lot of, you know, Ways to change up your process, but then it also changes, adds some hiccups and some, some ways that you can do things. And there's, you know, there's always multiple ways to do the same thing. So, you know, it, it, it's more, yeah, it comes back to, to me, process is really the way you look at in your environment and how you sort of engage and how you, you know, having the understanding that, yeah, there's kind of a guideline, but I never really view it as a checklist and I never kind of check things off. I just always have it as sort of, you know, A general guideline of, here are some things and here are some realities that I always want to keep top of mind while I'm doing things, but nothing is ever, this needs to be done, and then this needs to be done and I need to check this box off. Mm-hmm. Because that rigidity can I find, also suck the inspiration, the flow out of you when you're like, Oh, I'm doing this, but my process says I should do this. Oh, what, where do, where do I need to go? And that is, that's the biggest challenge with finding a good process for you. And, and I've been developing mine for the past, I dunno, since I started producing, it's been the, the biggest thing I sort of realized at the beginning was, Wow, there's so much stuff to figure out and I don't really need to use all the tools. So I gotta figure out what tools I like and, and how I like to use them and how they relate with other tools that I like to use. And so process is never done. Your process is never like, oh yeah, I got a process, now I can, now I can create the song of my dreams. It's the second you feel like your process is done, then you're gonna stay stagnant and you're not really gonna be able to grow anymore. Right? So even this, this past month, right? This. Adding new techniques and new tips to my, to my process are, are happening all the time and changing things and, and reaping things and, and, and, and understanding that, oh, I got this new tool. This kind of overrides the old way I used to do things. Um, you know, and, and, and sort of again, understanding how you sort of interact with the tools around you and the comfortability of knowing what they do and how you can get them to.

Marc Matthews: 30:28

Hmm. Yeah. Very interesting. I, I like what you said there about not being too rigid as well, which is why I kind of asked the question about the checklist and because otherwise yeah, it would be too rigid. And I think you mentioned that it would, it would ultimately suck the life out of it. So just to cap things off with regards to the processes, what would you say is probably the most important step for one, a better way of putting it in your process

Dan Fur: 30:52

that you. In, in, in my process. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I would personally say now that's a tough one. Yeah. That's, that's a, that's a, that's a real tough one. I think. I don't, you know, honestly, I don't know if I can answer that because I think the beauty of the process is it's how the parts all interact with each other to create the final product. Because as we all know, you know, inside the Mix podcast, a lot of, a lot of the listeners, I'm sure are mixers. As you all know, it's all. Perspective, right? Mm-hmm. And how we hear things in a mix is very dependent on our ears and how we like to see our things. And sure, there's definitely the Fletcher Munson curve and realities of what we're actually, you know, psychoacoustics and how the ears hear things. But there's a lot of different ways you can kind of mix things and, and, and, and go through things and, um, uh, completely lost my train of thought.

Marc Matthews: 31:47

Happens to be all the time. Yeah.

Dan Fur: 31:48

Um, what was I saying? What was I saying? Let's. Bunch of mix engineers. I had a good point going there. But, uh, anyways, it's lost me. Um, but, uh, yeah, what was the question again? Oh, man, that's

Marc Matthews: 32:01

okay. The, the question was the, uh, the most important step in your process? Yes. I bet you were saying that you couldn't answer it, but you were sort

Dan Fur: 32:07

of Yes. Developing that. Yeah. No, I think, I think, yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's all about how the process sort of interacts with each other and I feel like there is. Yeah. Yeah. I, I forgot where I was going with the whole, I had some, some way to tie it back to, to mix, but I completely lost it, so we're just gonna leave it at that. Yeah. I don't, uh, I, I think each part is equally as valuable as the last, I would definitely say my favorite part is the, uh, the initial part where I get to dance around and play with the hardware and, and make patches and, and whatever else. That's definitely my favorite part. But, you know, it's, um, it's hard to say that creating this skeleton is, The most important part of the jam and part of the song because taking that 95 to a hundred percent usually takes the most amount of work I find. And a lot of producers will kind of agree cuz it's just so hard to know when a song is done and, and and when to go from there. So it's, you know, and that's why the process so is so important because it allows you to follow the steps in, in a. Semi fluent, but not too rigid way to be able to get that 95 to a hundred percent without overthinking it a little bit too hard. So yeah, I don't, I don't think I definitely have one most important, but my favorite's definitely the first one where I get to make noise on the senses. Yeah, yeah,

Marc Matthews: 33:20

yeah. I'm not, I'm not surprised to be honest if you've got that, if you've got the possibility and the, the option there to, to use those synthesizers. And it's interesting what you mentioned there about, um, knowing when the song is finished, because I often ask that question when I speak. Mix engineers and artists as well. And knowing when a song is finished and being able to put it to play. Cause I regularly talk to other producers and they, they'll send a song across for me to have a listen to and, or just anyone really, and just say, Hey, you gimme a bit of feedback on this. And sometimes it's a case of having to say, look, just you, at some point you have to stop and put this onto bed and then move on to the next one. Knowing when, for one of a better way of putting it, when good is good. Yeah. Probably isn't the right way to put it. But knowing when to, to, to sort of move on, how, how do you, you find that yourself?

Dan Fur: 34:04

I, you know, the old saying, good enough is better than perfect, and I've teetered back and forth on that idea for a while. Um, mm-hmm. I definitely used to be the individual that would just sort of release things and, and move on. And I think from a learning perspective that is going to achieve the best results. There's no ifs, ands, or buts in, in my mind, in my perspective, that from, from a learning point of view, You know, spending hours and hours trying to get that last 5% is going to be a nightmare because you may have, yeah. Made some previous mistakes that are gonna get it really hard to fix that reality. And so understanding that, hey, I made some of these mistakes. These are some of the outcomes that happened, rather than trying to rewrite the wheel and go back and refix those things, understanding that, okay, well I, I got this good enough. I understand that this is an issue. Here's why it's an issue, and here's some things I can do to correct that in the in, in the next mix. And then don't do that in the me next mix. And then it doesn't become a problem that you need to spend all this time correcting and you know, you can learn through your problems that way. So from a perspective of trying to learn, trying to get better, growing as fast as you can. Just finish a song and move on. But now, obviously from a creative integral perspective, that opens up a whole nother debate of how much do you love that song? How attached to you, what's the meaning and sentimental value of the, the concept and the themes behind the song and all that other reality. So in those situations, if you're extremely like, this is your, your, your most passion project, then, then there's a little bit more understanding and and concept in my mind to be able to like, yeah, well, let's take the time. Let's go back and fix those problems and do what needs to be. Because this is so important to you. And that's really the biggest distinction with me. I feel like if, if you wanna, if it's this is your song, this is your project, this, this is it, then spending that, those, those extra hours, months, whatever it takes is without a doubt the way to do it. But if you're like, I want to get better and, you know, this is a, i I just want to make songs and I have a lot of ideas in my head and, and I gotta get them out, then you gotta get them out. Mm-hmm.

Marc Matthews: 36:05

I would agree with that. I think, um, I'm, I'm in the, I fall on the, on the side of just get the songs out. If you've got ideas in your head, get them out. And I, I, I'm guilty of not doing that myself. I, the idea I, I preach and I try and practice as best I can, but I'm, I'm very much like, What you said there about the, the get that final 5%, is it actually gonna make any difference? And sometimes I do find myself going down that rabbit hole and often, often, I think that's probably where I need to refine my processes myself. You know,

Dan Fur: 36:34

and oftentimes what I've realized, and, you know, funny case, uh, is this happened yesterday actually. Um, so I'm, uh, basically was submitting a song to the, uh, the, the, the PVC collab, like the Petite Victory collab, um, album, this, uh, this February and. It was, it was like an old January song. So the January mix and, and, and whatever was done was so casually, so free, fluent, just created, didn't jam, you know, in the spirit of just creating one jam a day, moving on. And so then, you know, when he, when, when, uh, when Graham kind of approached me and was like, Hey, do you wanna, you know, I, I, I want you to kind of submit a song for this. I was like, all right, yeah, let's, let's do it. So I, you know, went through my. Roster of the 31 jams and found the one that I sort of felt to be my, you know, the one that I wanted to submit, and I sort of opened the project. I'm like, well damn, this is like a thir three minute song that's like already mixed and pretty much ready to go. So I did a quick 30 minute polish again, in the same head space of just de de happily jam and do whatever. Just quick, 30 minutes, add some extra little layers, add some ideas here. All right, bounce it out. Bump, bump, bump done. And that master. Man, it sounds good. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, here's like one tiny little mistake I want to go fix. Went straight neuroticism into that mix and like, I think I got it a little bit better sounding in terms of a club mix and it would bounce a little bit better in some, some systems, but at the same time it didn't quite feel as warm and quite nice and, and as lush and, and, and, and the bottom was, bottom end wasn't quite as rounded out. And I was like, I didn't need to go that last 3%. That just, that just made it worse. I had hit the point of diminishing returns kind of thing, and sure enough I was, I was rushing a little bit cuz I was trying to go out and I only had like x amount of time to do it. So that was definitely a factor into it as well. But I ended up submitting the original master. I was like, I, I, you know, given the state of what this album is gonna be and it's just gonna be a band camp album that's, you know, really gonna be played for casual listening. I want the warmer. Softer mix. It was, it was, it was no question for me. And so that's what I ended up submitting. I'm like, I wasted, you know, an hour and a half and a lot of stress going back and forth deciding which master was better ultimately to figure out that. Yeah, the one that I had done casually initially and got it good enough was the one I liked more.

Marc Matthews: 39:01

Yeah. I've often done that. I've often, um, I, I use logic myself and you, I'm sure you have the same in sort of Ableton, another deer that was where you have altern. And, uh, and every time I do something that's gonna be quite a big change or whatever, I have alternatives. Oh yeah. And I regularly flick back to previous alternatives after a session. Oh yeah. And then I think for me, sometimes I think that's the catalyst to say, you know what, this is done if, if I, if I'm spending another hour or two trying to be dead it, or tweet something, you know, and then find out it doesn't work, and then just revert back to what you had before. Um, yeah, a hundred percent. So what, what I'd like to move on to now then is, um, is the sort of sound design. So you mentioned that you do a lot of sound design. You, you, you work in, you work in press production as well and you've worked on Stranger Things, Ms. Marvel and, and whatnot. Um, if, if our audience wanted to, cuz I know off air, and I said this, I've had discussions with the audience about sound design and how some of them want to move into sound design or, or develop their skillset. What would you suggest is the. Place to start, if you really, really wanted to get into sort of sound design, sampling and synthesis, what would your top tip be?

Dan Fur: 40:09

Just start doing it because there's 1,000,001 ways to do it. You know, I, I personally came fr, well, I shouldn't say there's 1,000,001 ways to do it, but there's, there's a lot of different angles to come at it and, you know, I know. Understanding, I guess what kind of. You or appeal to you the most? And what kind of sounds do you wanna make? Right? Because I know a lot of people that absolutely have the most passion and joy in their life to basically go out and, you know, get a lot of field recordings and, and do a lot of interesting, you know, sound design in a more organic, sort of natural element and, you know, that achieves a certain type of sound. Or do you want to do more cinematic, sort of, you know, sound design that's gonna be a little bit more horror based or, you know, understanding. There's a bunch of different tools in sound design and kind of getting to learn first, what are the sounds that kind of intrigue you and where do you wanna go? And then kind of just start reverse engineering things from there. And as well as just taking videos and try and sound, design them yourself. You know, just throw together whatever you can, um, on, on a video you love and just sort of see what, what you can come about of it. And, uh, you know, that sort of experience is so much more valuable than, than just sort of tweaking around and, and, Making sounds for the sake of making sounds, but actually having a purpose to the sounds you're making and trying to, trying to get that to sound is realistic to either the picture or the concept or the idea that that is, is in front of you. Cuz sound design for the sake of sound design, I love that it's such a meditative and respectful and, and, and wonderful thing to be able to just go, you know, sit in front of a synth and just start making some sounds and exploring and letting it sort of guide where you want to go and almost having communi, you know, a conversation with it. But you know, for the sake of sound design and wanting to do that as. As a career, having the focus or even wanting to, you know, just do that on a, on a level of getting some projects that are kind of fun to work on. It's, you know, having a purpose and having a portfolio is the best place to start. And you can make your own portfolio. They don't have to be paid gig. They don't even need to be projects. They can just be stuff that you've done, like, you know, like I say, take a video, throw some sound effects behind it that you created and, and you organize in whatever. And then boom, you've got a little piece of a portfolio, you know, There doesn't need to be much more than than that because your portfolio is about the sound design. Right. It, it's, it's about how it sounds and how it fits the mood in the picture and how realistic it, it feels. And so that's, you know, that's probably my biggest advice is, is try to get a. You know, a concept and sort of a direction with that. And then build your, once you have that direction, build your portfolio a little bit more to be able to have things to show people and have things to reach out. And then it becomes a whole different conversation about, you know, networking and, and branding and, and, and, and showcasing yourself. But the, uh, the best place to start is get yourself a direction and a goal, and then build a portfolio that suits that direction and that goal. And, um, that's the best stepping. In my opinion, opinion at

Marc Matthews: 43:08

least. Yeah, the, the idea of reverse engineering is fantastic and it's something that I do when it comes to songwriting. If I hear a song that I particularly like, for example, um, I'll try and reverse engineer it if it's a particular part of that song. So I think reverse engineering, and I think the key thing, what you said there is about is having a purpose to what you're doing and the reason why you are doing it. Otherwise, once again, you could sit, cuz I know a lot of the audience, um, use soft synths. So they'll, they'll sit with a d. And you have the synthesizer in front of you, but if you don't really have a purpose as to what you're trying to create, you can quite easily become disinterested, I think what's a solution with the process

Dan Fur: 43:46

and or just come up with absolutely anything. And then when it comes down to, okay, you've created all these cool sounds, now you get a great gig, and they're like, Hey, we have all these specific re requests. We want you to do this. Hey, this doesn't quite sound the way we thought it would sound. Can you do something a little bit more like this then? Those revisions become a whole lot harder because you're like, Ooh, I just sort of created what, what I, what was in my mind, not necessarily what sort of was in front of me or what was given to me. Right? Because especially in the realm of sound design is, sure you have a lot of, a lot of creativity to it, but very rarely are you the one that has the final say on what gets selected. And there's a lot of times where I've. Spent an hour on a nice patch with my modular, I got it sounding exactly where we want, and then what ends up getting selected is just a sample from the library and it's like, damn it, you know? But that's just the reality. You don't always have the the final say. And so understanding that, you know, there are. There doesn't need to be the same sound as what you're hearing. You can get really creative with it and oftentimes sounds that you would not at all think are the sound end up being a way better job for the sound than. The actual sound itself due to how it punches through in the mix and, and all sorts of other factors in the, in the final post process. And so there's, you know, there's a lot of other factors at bay than, than just sound design, right? It's, it's, how does that sound fit into the overall context of the mix? And, you know, some of these mixes you're dealing with six, 700 channels easily. And, um, it's just one little measly channel in there, right? So it, it. Needs to cut through in a way that the listener can hear, but not override the other factors, whatever. So there's, there's a lot of other aspects than just the sound that you choose and trying to make it sound as realistic to what that sound is, because sometimes what is the actual real sound is not at all the best sound for the job.

Marc Matthews: 45:44

Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent advice. I would agree with that. Um, when, when I've come to, I don't do it so much anymore when I've done tan design in the past. Um, I often think, um, I want this particular sound and whatever I create in the end is probably quite far removed from what it is that I wanted, but it suits better and it fits better. You know, my, my, my next question off the back of that was with regards to sound design. Do you do it in the songwriting process or do you do them totally separately? So you might, you know what, today I'm gonna be writing a song and then I'm gonna sound design separately. Or do they sort of, do they sort of cross.

Dan Fur: 46:18

Pretty, pretty split. I definitely have sound design sessions without a doubt. Mm-hmm. And they, they definitely often will become the base of a songwriting or of, you know, of, of, of a song or of, of, of a, a concept or something like that. But there are definitely a lot of times where, you know, I've gotten the song pretty well arranged, pretty well structured, and I'm like, I want to hear this sound and, um, you know, usually I'll go sculpt something that is gonna be where I want it to be and, and, and fill the frequency space and, and, and do what I want it to do. So there's a lot of times where, you know, once the skeleton's there, then I'll be like, Ooh, it really needs, you know, a little, little plucky bell or it really needs just a lush pad or something like that. And then a lot of cases I'll be like, Ooh, I know exactly a patch that I have that's gonna work great for that. But there's definitely some instances where I'm like, Let me just, uh, I, I think I can make something that's a bit better than what I got, and there's definitely other instances where I'm like, I feel like something's missing, but I don't really know what. Then I'll often just sort of set a simple sequence through, through to a synth and just start exploring and having a conversation with the music and letting the synth sort of guide, guide the way and use sound design almost as an arrangement concept. And so, you know, it's definitely a pretty evenly split. Part of my process that sort of finds its way in in a lot of different pockets and a lot of different elements, um, throughout the whole actual songwriting process, I would say.

Marc Matthews: 47:40

Hmm. Yeah. I thought that's why you were gonna say something along those lines cuz it's, it's a conversation I've had with, with the previous guest and I can't remember for the life of me who, who the guest was, cause I had to say many. Um, but it was a case of the separate sessions. But like you said, there, there are gonna be instances. One goes into the other just naturally because like I say, you want a particular sound at that given moment, so you, you, you're gonna, you're gonna have them cross over. Yeah.

Dan Fur: 48:05

And especially, you know, coming from, the starting of my process is very hardware focused, so, In doing that, what usually ends up happening is, you know, maybe I'll start on these patches that I've sort of created, but then as I'm dancing around, you know, maybe I'll tweak a knob a little bit more than I intended to, and some happy accidents will appear. Or, or some, you know, happy in intentional things will happen where I'll, the sound will sort of just delve into a different realm and I'll be like, oh, well that worked pretty well. And, uh, so then, you know, the sound design kind of like I say, becomes a little element of arrangement and that's, you know, brings me to. Uh, uh, you know what I love to do in the actual sound design sessions is when I create a patch and the patch is sounding. That's only 50% of the work for me, what is the more important part of sound design and, and a patch for me is how manipulable is that patch, right? So Macron knobs in this case are your best friend because you can create your own special little instances and parameters to be like, when I turn this knob, this specific instance happens. When I turn this knob, this specific in incident happened, here's gonna be a, a good sort of energy building effect. Here's gonna be an energy down lifting. You know, also you, you can sort of create that li life and movement within your patch. To be able to use it as more than just a stagnant instrument, you know? And sure we can go automate our filter sweeps and and do that manually, but I find doing that in the sound design process makes it way more of an organic experience. Because then again, what it comes down to is when I'm doing my jamming around tweak and knobs experience, I have those macro knobs to play with and use as an instrument and. A mixer to be able to sort of phase them in and out and completely sculpt the sound from one idea to another, even though it's the same patch. And that can do wonders for the continuity of a song because. It's, it's, it's all one patch that flows between another, but it's two completely different sounds at the end of the day, right? Yeah. And, um, and, and so to me, that's why I say designing the sound and getting it to sound good, that's only 50% of the battle. Getting it to sound manipulable and organic to sort of flow between different areas, that's what really creates a good patch for me.

Marc Matthews: 50:13

Yeah, it's quite nice. It's the way, the way you describe it there is having those sort of tactile and being able to change those, whether, I suppose with the hardware and you've got the macros that you can change, or I mean, doing it in the box you're gonna use, use the ones in the box. But actually I never, it is never really been spoken of that way on the podcast in that don't just stick with one with the patch that you have, but actually throughout the piece, change the parameters of that. To come up with something new and something different. And I think that would only help with songwriting in terms of listener interest as well. Yeah. And if you've got that patch and you're changing it throughout

Dan Fur: 50:48

the composition. Yeah, and I think that's something that I definitely got through the modular community because there's, uh, I think it was Sarah Bell Reed that said it. Um, you know, and I, I've never been a student of hers, but I definitely know a couple people that, that have taken her modular lessons and, uh, you know, speak very quite fondly of it and any anyways, she, she's, you know, very, quite renowned in, in her performances and her experiences. And so basically the quote that really stood out for me as far as her modular performances, like I intentionally destroy my patches, you know, get them completely mangled and lost and then try and resculpt them back to what I remember. And I was like, wow, that's such a powerful. You know, bold. Mm-hmm. But completely powerful, you know, and I sort of sort of took that and ran with that a little bit in more of a controlled setting and was like, okay, well let me just put a little bit more foresight into how can I destroy these patches in a. Constructive and concise way without actually destroying them, but just rather mangling them in a, in a, in a concise way. Mm-hmm. And so, so I think, you know, that's something that a lot of modular people do because, you know, let's face it, you're just gonna lose a patch regardless. So you might as well, you know, might as well go down with the ship kind of thing and, and, and, and embrace it. But, but it was, you know, I was sort of, To like, well, how can I bring this back to sort of an organized element of chaos? Cause I love chaos, but it's gotta have a little bit of, you know, it can't just be pure chaos. So, so that was, that was really the biggest takeaway. And, and yeah, I think it, you know, it all stemmed from, you know, that quote from her and, um, And then I just sort of took that and ran with it and, you know, took it outside the modular realm, took it to all my hardware, all, all the vsts, every, every patch I create, even in terms of adding effects to those patches. You can create macros in, in, in Ableton to be able to link, you know, your reverb and your delays and other things to be able to create macros within, within the effects as well. And so, you know, just making things manipulable and, and, and changeable is, Only gonna make for a more tactile and organic experience when it comes down to songwriting, I find.

Marc Matthews: 52:47

Hmm. I love that idea. That quote is brilliant. Um, taking a patch and then all pretty much destroying it and then trying to get back to where you were. I'm gonna give that a again, myself. I never thought of doing that, and that sounds like such a, a fun. Way of just experimenting and creating, just taking something,

Dan Fur: 53:04

you know, it's one of things. You record it all and then goes back to our conversation of editing. You know, earlier in this conver, earlier in the, in the chat, it's like you just recorded all, some of it may be an absolute mess of noise that you might not want to use. Yeah. But some. May be really, really cool. It just needs a little bit of, you know, time manipulation and whatever to get it to exactly fit with the idea of your song. And, you know, through editing you can kind of do that. And so it's, it's sort of a fun little, you can just do that, you know, in a song, or you can kind of also just do that with just a random patch for the sake of learning your patches and trying to create those macros. But, If you record it all, if you come across a really cool idea, then you can save that. You can snip that and you can edit that. And that's a sound that you might not really ever be able to get back again because it was just done through random, random patching. Mm-hmm.

Marc Matthews: 53:58

No, fantastic. I love that. This has been great. I've realized we're almost at the hour mark, and that has absolutely flow by. Yeah, I know. Um, so with that in mind, Dan, this, this has been brilliant and I know the audience are gonna get loads outta this with regards to sound design and, um, audience listening. If you do go on to do more sound design, please do, uh, report. What you've taken from this, cuz uh, we'd be very intrigued to know. Can you just, um, so we'll sort of finish it up, wrap it up here. Can you just let audience know where they can find you online? Yes. If you wanna get in

Dan Fur: 54:23

contact. So I've got, uh, I've got a website to dan fur productions.com. Um, if anybody wants to head up there, there's, uh, sort of a, a link for a free. 30 minute chat for anybody who's interested in, in learning. A little bit about mentorship, a little bit about mixing or just, you know, wanna, wanna sort of have a little bit of ba little chat about something. Send me, you know, send me a message. I'm also quite, quite active on Instagram, I would say is my most prominent, uh, social media. And that's Dan Fur music. Um, and, uh, and yeah, I also have TikTok as well at Danford Productions, but I haven't quite been on there in, uh, a good long while. So if you wanted to go, go on a follow, there's. Some archives of some tips on there, but it's been, yeah, about a year since I've posted much on there. So I would say Instagram is probably the best place to contact me. Um, but if you want a little, little bit more about, uh, you know, about Danford Productions, then you can go go to danford productions.com and that'll, uh, you know, like I say, allow you to book a quick chat with me, um, check out a little bit more about, uh, some, some of the things I offer and, uh, and yeah. But, uh, you know, I would say I'm, I'm a casual guy. There's, uh, if you wanna just pop onto my, I. Sam, say hi. You know, ask any questions about things you heard today. By all means, I'd be more than happy to clarify anything. If there's something that you were, you know, were quite interested in, we didn't quite go down the, the detail that you were looking for. Just, you know, send me a chat. We'll, uh, we'll answer it

Marc Matthews: 55:42

for you. Yeah, fantastic. And I highly recommend doing that as well because in the space of an hour there's only so, so much you can get through. So if you do have any questions, I want to dive, dive deeper into sand design. I highly encourage you to do that. And I will put links to all those in the, um, the episode notes as well. So, The audience can go away and, uh, and hit those up. But Diana, big thanks for today. Thank you very much for spending your Sunday with me. Um, I dunno what time it is where you are. Uh, what is it? Middle of the day? Yeah,

Dan Fur: 56:11

just about noon. Yeah. No, it was my pleasure. I got up, uh, walked the dog, already had some coffee, so it's been, uh, a pleasant morning. I, uh, I've been happy to do this. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Fantastic.

Marc Matthews: 56:20

No, no, absolutely. My pleasure. My pleasure. And, um, do. If you're on Instagram, do go follow down on Instagram cuz the videos, um, that you post are great and you get to see more of the, the modulars and whatnot, um, that easy that is tinkering with as well. So do go and do that. But um, yeah. I will leave you now to enjoy the rest of your Sunday and once again, a huge thank you and I'll catch up with you soon.

Dan Fur: 56:39

Thanks everybody, and thanks again for having me.

Marc Matthews: 56:42

My pleasure.