Inside The Mix | Music Production and Mixing Tips for Music Producers and Artists

#73: Adrian Hall | How do you Make a Professional Sounding Mix?

March 14, 2023 Adrian Hall Season 3 Episode 14
Inside The Mix | Music Production and Mixing Tips for Music Producers and Artists
#73: Adrian Hall | How do you Make a Professional Sounding Mix?
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Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In this episode of Inside The Mix, we have a special guest, Adrian Hall, who is a mixer, engineer, and producer. Adrian has worked with some of the biggest names in the industry, and he shares his expertise with us on a range of topics.

Firstly, we talk about remote mixing and the use of audio movers. Adrian explains what to look for in a mastering service and the difference between a beginner mix and a professional mix. He also stresses the importance of mixing in mono and checking in mono.

Next, Adrian shares some tips on how to capture the energy of a live performance. He talks about his experience working with DM live in Berlin and how he approached the mix.

Adrian also addresses the question of whether you can tell the difference between in-the-box and analogue. He discusses the advantages and disadvantages of both and how to use them effectively.

Finally, Adrian talks about the role of mastering engineers and how they hear music in a different way. He shares his technique of mixing through a limiter and mixing into a mix bus chain.

If you're interested in improving your mixing skills or just love music, this episode is a must-listen. Don't miss out on valuable insights and tips from one of the best in the industry. Tune in now!

To follow Adrian Hall, click here: https://adrian-hall.com/

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Thanks for listening & happy producing!

Adrian Hall:

You are listening to the Inside The Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews.

Marc Matthews:

Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. I'm Mark Matthews, your host, musician, producer, and mix and mastering engineer. You've come to the right place if you want to know more about your favorite synth music artist, music, engineering and production, songwriting and the music industry. I've been writing, producing, mixing, and mastering music for over 15 years, and I wanna share what I. With you. Hey folks, and welcome back to the Inside The Mix podcast. If you are a new listener, please do, uh, hit subscribe on the podcast. And thank you for joining me today. I probably got that around the wrong way. And if you're a returning listener, welcome back to the podcast. Now, in this episode, I am very excited to welcome our guest. There's a mixer, engineer and producer Adrian Hall. So I'm just gonna run through a. A bio here for the audience listening if you're not familiar with Adrian. So he's got a wealth of experience working on all kinds of projects with artists at all levels of the industry, from worldwide household names up to up and up and coming onside bands, equally at home, tracking a live band with the studio for the musicians, or being left to mix tracks on his own. Adrian is both a technically adept and creative engineer, and has worked with artists such as Tori Amos, Depeche Mode Gold Frat, the Black Eyed Peas, Alicia Keys, robbery Williams, Shakira, and. And, uh, and, and many more on top of that. And he's gonna share with us some mixed engineering pearls of wisdom that will no doubt, inspire and improve your next project. Adrian, thank you for joining me today. And how are you?

Adrian Hall:

I'm very well, thank you. My pleasure to be here, sis. I'm looking forward to

Marc Matthews:

this. It's gonna be fun. Fantastic. Yes, me too. Me too. It's, uh, for the audience listening, it was, um, Dom, I think, who put me in touch with you, if I remember right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's correct. Yeah. The Don Moley episode. So after this episode, if you haven't listened to that, when did go chat that one out? I think it's episode 56. I could be wrong. I could be wrong. Yeah, he's

Adrian Hall:

great, Dom. I mean, he's, he's brilliant. So we, we were a metropolis together for many years when we both, when we were both training. So, yeah, he, he's

Marc Matthews:

great. Yeah. Yeah. Is it, that episode in itself has proved to be a very popular one, so no doubt this one will be as well. So I think it's quite cool. Adrian, if we just start off with a bit of, um, your background, really. How did it all begin? How did your mix engineer journey start?

Adrian Hall:

Um, I, I, I went into it in a slightly roundabout route in the, I actually went to university and studied, uh, acoustics, acoustics and vibration. I spent four years at Southampton, um, and got a master of engineering., uh, and I was all set to be an acoustic consultant. You know, had worked in my summers for the same company, a really good acoustic consultancy, and I was all set there. Um, but I'd always had this recording bug, so, um, I kind of gave it all up to make tea in a recording studio, essentially. Um, threw away a, you know, i'd, I'd probably be on a nice company salary now, a company car. Pension, and it all, it all went out the window. Really? For, uh, yeah. To, to make tea and mend headphones in, in a studio.

Marc Matthews:

Amazing. So with regards to, uh, it's interesting you mentioned that about the, the master's degree because that's Southampton stolen, is that correct?

Adrian Hall:

Uh, no. South, there's University of Southampton Place. Southampton, yeah. The ISV R Institute of Sound and Vibration Research, which, It's like one of the, one of two places in the country to study s

Marc Matthews:

Yeah. Because interestingly, I, um, almost went down that route myself. So I remember did, I did an open day down at Southampton Soland, and um, I went in the, I can never pronounce it correctly, the Anec Anec Chamber. Yeah. Ana never get it right. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Ana Coic chamber. Yeah. You go in and the. It's dead, basically.

Adrian Hall:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had, we had one of those, um, well, there, interestingly, there were two rooms right next to each other. One was the Anaco Chamber, which was, I think it's one of the largest in Europe. It's pretty huge to be honest, vr. So you walk in and, you know, you are, you are, you walk in on a grating, you're elevated above six foot foam wedges. And the, the room's huge but completely dead. Yeah. And you know, they'd bring in whatever car engines and loudspeakers, whatever testament there. But then right next, Which I, people don't talk about this so much, but there was an echoic chamber. Oh, okay. Which was like solid concrete walls, hard plastered, uh, floor and ceiling and walls. Yeah. So it's like a huge squash court. Like, like if you snapped your fingers in there, it sounded like a gunshot gone off. Wow. It was cuz the, the reverberation was so intense. I, I forget how long the reverb time was. Something like 30 seconds or something. It's ridiculous. Mm-hmm.. And the aim of that is to create a diffuse sound field. So you put something in there, it makes noise and sound is coming from literally all directions cuz the reflections are so hard and so strong. So yeah, right next to each other, these completely different acoustic environments. Yeah. Crazy. Marc Matthews: I, I've it, considered it from the other perspective of actually creating an environment where it is so reflective. What is it like, cause I, I, I know when you go into an an anoa chamber and., um, there's a certain feeling about it when you go into a, a, a room whereby you've got all those reflections. What, what is it like on like your sort of mental, your, the psychology behind it? Is it quite weird? It's, yeah. I mean it's, it's, it's really intense because yeah, in an ACO chamber you get no reflections coming back at you. So if I'm talking to you and you are 10 feet away, and you turn around mm-hmm. and your voice is going into the wall. You know, I really, it's really hard to hear somebody, even if they're talking quite loudly, um, you don't realize how much of your environment and, and the, the. In, in a studio or, or, or in a control room, you're actually getting from the reflections. Yeah. Um, and obviously the echoic chamber is the complete opposite. It's really intense. Yeah. The smallest sound is really loud. Yeah. Um, so everything's kind of magnified. Uh, it's, yeah, it's, it is, it is fun. I mean, you know, you'd never wanna record anything in there, but, um, yeah,, Marc Matthews: it sounds, I, I, put that on my sort of bucket list to go away cameras, cause I'd never considered it before. It sounds interesting. Do you, do you still do any of the, the acoustic side of things? No. No, not at all. Not at all. Okay. They're all up. So yeah, I mean, it, it helps sometimes if I'm in a studio and, you know, in a live room, you can kind of suss out a live room pretty quickly. Yeah. In the sense of, okay, this isn't gonna work for what I need. Let's put garbage down or baffle this or do that, you know? But no, all the testing side of things and the math side of. Totally don't use, you know, it's all gone. It's all gone.. Marc Matthews: Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. I did, I ended up doing a masters in music, uh, production and en engine. Right. Music production and audio engineering. Um, so I tossed up between the two and Bitly, I do use it to be fair, but yeah, I, I was so, I was almost, almost there with the acoustics. I almost went down that route. Yeah, I mean, af after that, like when I decided I wanted to do recording, then I did go to, um, s SAE School of Audio Engineering, which, which at the time there was only one in, in, in the uk it was in London. And it was, uh, you know, two inch tape, uh, SSLs and Neves. They, they had a knee vr and they had, um, the year I went was the first year they got an SSL e.. So, and they had a, you know, two inch 24 track machines, which at the time I think Pro Tools at the time was four tracks or eight tracks. Mm-hmm.. Um, so it was, you know, it was still very much that world. And I, I guess I was kind of one of the last generation of engineers to be trained on tape. Um, yeah. So it was, it was during that, , you know, when I was at Metropolis, which I joined shortly after that. Yeah. That the whole transition went away from 48 track analog on a big SSL to, by the time I left, people were starting to mix in the box. Mm-hmm., um, but not quite, if you know what I mean. It was kind of, it was almost there. Yeah. You know,

Marc Matthews:

so did they, in theory then, I mean, you're saying they started to mix in the box? Do they not, I, I dunno if you know actually, uh, whether or not you're still in contact with them, but do they not still teach that process of using the, the larger contacts and the 48 tracks and then cutting it to tape? Is there not a, a call for them to do that?

Adrian Hall:

I think I, I dunno, very occasionally I'll go down there, I'll go down to s a e London and do a masterclass. It's like one day a year or something. Maybe they'll ask me down or go down, listen to some student mixes and give some feedback. That kind of.. Um, I haven't seen a two inch machine in there. It seems to be pro tools. Mm-hmm., which would make sense, you know, I mean, yeah. Two inch is such a specialist thing now, um, that, I mean, I, I don't think I've used two inch tape in about a decade. Yeah. Maybe half inch of, I've mixed a half inch maybe about eight years ago. Yeah. But, uh, I don't have a tape machine in my studio. I, I'm pro tools, I'm digital, you know, so,

Marc Matthews:

Are you, I see some outboard gear behind you there. Yeah, you have, you got like a mixture of the two then. Are you working some in the box? A mixture of outboard and then digital?

Adrian Hall:

Yeah, essentially. I mean, do you want me to swivel around? I can show you a little bit. Let's do it. Yeah, have a look. So, I mean there's, there is quite a lot of outboard.. Oh, yeah. Uh, so yeah, it's kind of outboard racks. Um, some SSL stuff up the top there. Fusion, manly, num, uh, and then that's control surface, SSL control surface, and obviously pro tools and screens. But essentially, I, I, um, I'm, I'm mixing in pro tools. Yeah. Uh, but I have 24, 24 IO on my rig. Okay. So I use hardware.. Mm-hmm.. So, um, so I'm using pro tool, summing. Yeah. But, but obviously like I'll send the money channels, you know, um, kick snare, bass, lead, vocal, maybe a couple of other little bits through the, you know, through some of the outboard and back in, and either record it back in or, or write down the settings. Um, but I mean, honestly, these days, um, I can't really tell if a mix has been done in the box or if it's been done analog. Do you know what I mean? The, the, the plugins and what you can do. I, in the box now is sonically great, you know? Um, So certainly for your listeners that are worried about, oh, I have to use analog, have to do this, or I must use analog summing, or whatever, I, I can't tell the difference. Do, do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's, it's more a workflow thing. So if I'm going for a particular sound, you know, if I'm working with more of a alternative rock band or something, then you know, I might, you know, run stuff. Oh, make my hand go the right way. The, the, the ssl, I've got a, a bus plus and a fusion. So that goes across the mix. Yeah. So you get that SSL flavor across the mix straight away. Or if it's a more soft acoustic thing, then I might use, uh, the manly new m and I've got a, I've got a kind of, um, a designs pool, tech stereo queue there. So, so just across the mix bus, it's immediately softer. Got some valves in the chain. It's just a. vibe to mix through. Um, but nothing that you c couldn't really recreate with plug-ins, you know? I mean, obviously it's nice to have the hardware and, and I love it, don't get me wrong, but, um, but, you know, it's, it's a, it's a subtle thing. Um, yeah, and like I say, I can't tell, you know, you can't listen to the radio and go, oh, that's a analog mix, and that's a digital mix. You

Marc Matthews:

know? Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I remember, I think I was, I think it was when I was chatting to Dom, it might have been Mike, actually. I chat to Mike Exeter as well. Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. A few weeks back. Yeah. And um, it's, I think the idea summarized that ultimately the listener, I mean, Isn't too bothered about the journey of how it got to where it is. They're just more into interested in, I mean, you get some, the audio files who, who may be, but predominantly, most listeners just want to hear something that sounds good, you know, in a

Adrian Hall:

blind listening test. No, but you know, because it's, it's an art form, right? So there is, it's all subjective. So if, if you helps you get you to where you want to go and you want to use analog or half inch or two inch or whatever, or stay in the box, then fine. There's, there's no, there's no right or wrong answer as such. Mm-hmm., um, You know, even if you're deluding yourself,, , there's a belief that this sounds better, you know? But if it helps you get there and helps you create the music and make the sound you wanna make, you know, um, great. Yeah, great. You know, uh, whatever helps you create.

Marc Matthews:

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Agree with that. Yeah. If it, if it, if it makes your workflow more efficient or, or it helps your workflow, then totally. Yeah. Just start slightly off topic, looking at the output behind you there, cuz Yeah, it's slightly Grady on my back here. Is that a, are those distresses at the top there though? I see. Yeah. I thought

Adrian Hall:

they were. I thought they were. Yeah. So there's, there's a pair of distressors that, I've actually got three, there's one down here as well because I, I initially bought a pear. Yeah. And then one of them was always on the snare. So I thought, well, I've only got one spare one. So yeah, I've got three of those. So, I mean, this is all stuff I've collected over 20 years, 25 years of doing this. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Uh, and the latest thing now of course, is, uh, there you can see the speaker in the sky. I dunno if you can see that on you. Oh

Marc Matthews:

yeah. I can see. Is that, are you mixing the 5.1? Yeah. Well,

Adrian Hall:

at Moss, yeah. Oh, at Moss. Yeah. So my room's gone at Moss now, so. Ah, lovely. Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll see. I mean, it's, it's amazing whether, whether it stays and hangs around as a format. You know, other surround formats have come and gone. So we'll see. But I mean, it's, it's great. It's great fun. It's great fun to mix, you know? Yeah,

Marc Matthews:

I can imagine. It's not something I've ever, um, had the opportunity to, I, I delved into ambisonics at one point and by and roll, and then looked at head related transfer functions and all this sort of business, uh, a few years back. But, um, yeah, it kind of fell by the wayside after a while, but it's really interesting. Yeah, I'm trying to, I did a five, I did some 5.1 mixing very crude mix is might I add way back when, when I was doing my master's degree, but. Yeah, I'd love, I'd love to get back into

Adrian Hall:

it again. Yeah, well you'll have to come down. Come down. I've listened . Oh, I'd love to. That'd be brilliant.

Marc Matthews:

Yeah. Out of interest, where are you based? Where, where are you got this

Adrian Hall:

one today? Sutton Southwest London. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, a fair amount of my clients are still, you know, in and around London, you know, so, uh, I haven't moved out to the country like, like Dom and some others have, you know, it's kinda . Yeah.

Marc Matthews:

I notice it's a, uh, a number sort of move cuz I'm in the, so. So there's a number of sort of mastering studios and there's loud mastering in Taunton, which I know is quite a prominent mastering and there's Yep. Super audio mastering in Shafford, which is right. I've been there a number of times, so I can't remember the gentleman's name, but he, uh, he worked on the, I've got it right in front of me here actually. He worked on sh label Bells. Uh Oh wow. Okay. By Goldfield, so, right. Yeah. They seem to come to, because it is quite a nice part of the world down in Southwest. I'm. But,

Adrian Hall:

um, yeah, yeah. No, no, absolutely, man. I mean, I, I, a couple of years ago I mixed an album for Tori who was a studio down in Cornwall. You know, she's lived down there for, I dunno, 20 years or something. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that, you know, but to be honest, most of my work now is remote. Um, people send me files and, you know, I either send files back or we do an online thing where I can stream the mix to them and we can, you know, talk in real time about it. Yeah. So, yeah, that re, that requisite of having to be in the same. you know, it doesn't, it doesn't exist so much anymore, which to, to be, to be honest, I'm, I miss, I, I'm, I'm not one of those guys that wants to keep the band away. Yeah. Um, far from it, you know? Um, cuz I think when you have people in the room, there's something to be said for that. You know, I, I don't necessarily need the band there, what I'm eq in the high hat or the second rack, Tom, you know, but it's that thing of actually, once the mix is going, If you have people in the room or you're doing a thing online where it's real time, then you can make 10 decisions in, you know, three minutes, which would've taken 10 emails otherwise, you know. Mm-hmm.. So there's something to be said for that, you know? Yeah.

Marc Matthews:

That was gonna be my next question actually, with, um, with regards to actually, uh, the processes or what you're, the services that you're doing now. So you're not recording, you're just doing sort of. Based mixing, um, with regards to that remote based mixing. Are you, cuz I know there's a software and I've looked, I I've briefly looked into it myself whereby you can stream the session and the individual at the other end can listen in real time. Yeah. Are you, are you offering that sort of service or is this

Adrian Hall:

sort of like, . Yeah. A a, absolutely. I mean, uh, there's, there's a few companies that, that do, do that kind of thing. Mm-hmm., I, I use a company called Audio Movers. Yeah. Uh, that plugins called Listen to, where you just stream it down a web, you know, I put it on my Pro Tools master bus, and it streams directly to a web server.. Um, there's a little latency. It's about like, kind of 0.1, 0.2 of a second. Um, but it's, it's, it's basically real time. You know, you couldn't record with it. It's not, you know, obviously the latency's a problem there, but, um, but yeah, certainly for streaming mixes and, and communication, it's, it's great, you know. Um, but I mean, having said that, I do have, I do do recording. I have a little booth here, um, and if I'm producing an artist, then obviously. Depends what the budget is. We might go, I, I've got a small booth with, you know, a vocal mic and guitar amps and even a drum set in the corner. But, but it's very much an overdub room. You have to record things one at a time. So if I'm working with a project that's more, has to be more of a live band, then, uh, then we, you know, we'll go to other premises. Um, But yeah, we can come here and do overdubs and whatnot. Um, but yeah, most of my work, probably, probably 80% of my work is, is mixing. Um, and probably 90% of that work is remote. Yeah.

Marc Matthews:

Do you, this is an interesting question. Do you offer a mastering service as well, or do you just do the mixing and then you've got a referer that, or someone you refer the master to? Depending on,

Adrian Hall:

I would much rather send it. One of the few mastering engineers that I know and trust mm-hmm.. Um, unfortunately these days, of course, budget doesn't always allow that. Yeah. So it's kind of a thing if, if I'm mixing the whole EP or whatever it is or album and they want me to master it as part of the. Thing then sure, I can give you a loud master, you know, I can run it through a limiter and, and get it commercially loud and match the level between the tracks, you know, the stuff that a mastering engineer will do. Um, but I think what the mastering engineers are really good at is that objective. Third opinion. Yeah. You know, there's the artist, the mixer, producer, whoever, and then somebody who's never heard all before and goes, ah, you know what this needs. And obviously they have great gear, great EQs, amazing speakers so they can hear everything. Um, as much as I love my room, you know, and it's great having that, you know, there's, there's only a few I trust, to be honest. Mm-hmm., you know, there's, there's plenty of mastering guys out there who, you know, are, are pretty good. But I wouldn't necessarily, you know, advise a client to spend loads of money. because it's not gonna be much different than what I would do. It's not to knock mastering engineers, you know, the good ones are really great and, and they're magic. It comes back and I think mastering engineers hear music in a different way than mixed engineers Do. You know, they, I, I dunno what it is. Obviously never trained as mastering engineer, but if I hear a mix, I'm thinking about balance and, yeah. The vocal sound and, you know, rides and dynamics and, and somehow mastering engineers, couldn. Just as a finished piece of music and go, you know what this needs, I need to take out a little bit of 400 and add a bit of seven K and it's better. Um, and obviously as a mixer you kind of do some of that. Yeah. But they hear it differently. I genuinely believe it's a different way. Their whole process of how they interact with music, recorded music and the finished two track product they get given is very different than what a mix engineer gets given. So, Um, yeah, a, a great master engineer is, you know, when it comes back it is, like I said, it's kind of magic. It's like, what have you done? I don't understand what you've done, but it's better. That's, that's great. You know, um, and other times it comes back and it's a little bit disappointing and not as good as the loud reference that I've created, so, yeah. Um, so then we have a little, you know, we make sure., it gets revealed, revised, and is better than what I could do on my own. Hopefully.

Marc Matthews:

Yeah, it's ma mastery. I I guess that's why I remember when I've spoken to mastering engineers and you, you hear the phrase, the dark art of mastering not, I dunno if they necessarily like it described that way, but, uh, it, it is, isn't it? I guess it's, it's like you say that it's cuz you've got the objectivity and you, you're looking at it from a totally different viewpoint. as yourself. And when I've done mixes, you're sat there and you are, you are invested in that mix. You know, the look and the nuances and stuff. Whereas that third party, you can just see it from a totally different perspective. Yeah. So the, the audience that we have with the podcast, um, probably maybe fall into that category where they, they may be outsourcing, mastering, or they're doing it in themselves. If they are outsourcing, mastering, what do you think they should look for in, in a mastering service? Um, the

Adrian Hall:

key thing, . I, I guess, uh, I guess it's, it's more about what they're expecting the mastering engineer to do. Mm-hmm., do you know what I mean? Cause the mastering engineer is very much a finishing process. So if your balance is not right in your mix, the mastering engineer cannot fix that. Mm-hmm., do you know what I mean? So, particularly with things in the mid., you know what I mean? So if you are mix overall just needs a little tone or shaping, or it needs to be a bit brighter, or you've been too heavy with a base, so we need to tuck some stuff, then that's what mastering will sort that out. And it's great, but if you want your snare drum louder, uh, but your vocals are too loud or, you know, the balance of the guitars against the keyboards is not right. Obviously a mastering engineer is gonna have, it's not impossible, but it's very difficult to make that kind of adjustment. So I think you have to be very happy with the balance of your music and the way it makes you feel, or the dynamic changes with your music. Mm-hmm.. Um, because one of the first things that when mastering started to get loud, uh, in the nineties, you know, when I was training mm-hmm., one of the first things you realized what the limit did was squash your dynamics. So, you know, In the studio, you'd be going along in the verse, you hit the chorus and it jumps up great. But obviously once you hit put a limiter on that, the limiter is gonna pull the chorus down. Um, so suddenly your dynamic range, your, your transition from your verse to your chorus is much less of a jump. Um, so it might not have the impact that you wanted. Um, so what I do is I always. through a limiter. It'll go on quite late in the process, but I, I, as part of the mixing process, I am hearing what a limiter would be doing that brings it up to commercial loudness levels. Mm-hmm., if you, does that make sense? It does. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not, I'm not printing the mix with the limiter on, or rather, I'll print two versions with them without the limiter. but I, I have an idea of what the limiter is gonna do to the dynamics of the track. And I'm not worried about multi-band processing and, you know, mastering EQ and all that. It's just once I get it to a le a certain level, uh, and it's hitting my mix bus how I want it, and the, or the half inch emulation, you know, it's zero vu. Okay. Then I know that a commercial release is gonna, Five DB louder, you know, because I'm referencing, right. I'm pulling references into my sessions so I know, okay, if I turn down this commercial track five db, then it kind of sounds like my mix approximately. Cool. Great. So I know how much gain I need to apply to the limited the get up to commercial levels. Yeah.

Marc Matthews:

Yeah. Is this making sense? It is, yeah. And it,

Adrian Hall:

so then, then I can put a limiter on and make it as loud as commercial release and I. How it's gonna feel going into a chorus or dropping into the second verse, or do you know what I mean? How Yeah. You gotta keep those dynamics cuz it is part of what makes music exciting. Um, if your verse comes along and you just kind of seamlessly blend into the chorus and then back through to the second verse, Dan, obviously it's not gonna be as exciting as it could be. Yeah. Um, so I, I need to know what the limit's doing, even if it's not, it's not me that's gonna be applying the final limiter. So, uh, I guess the thing is to get your mix to a state where it sounds and feels really good without the limiter. Yeah. You know, and then the limiter really is only just making it loud. You, you know, your mix shouldn't like completely fall apart if you take the limiter off, which I've, I've had, have had some rough mixes that are like that, you know? Um, because people are doing too much of the limiter. If you're doing kind of 10 or 12 db of limit. To get it up to commercial loudness levels, then that's gonna massively affect the balance of the mix when you take the limiter off. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because the limit are squashing everything, holding it in place. Um, so my advice would be try and mix without the limiter and, and then the limiter on the end is really only doing, say, five or six dp. Yeah. Um, and if you send that to a mastering engineer, then hopeful. It'll be much closer to what you want it to be. Your mix will be in a better position going on the way to mastering, um, if you're not leaning so heavily on the final limiter. Ah,

Marc Matthews:

fantastic advice. It it, it echos a conversation I had, um, about a month ago with another producer. Cause we were discussing, um, mix bus and what is on your, sorry. Master bus, mix Bus, master bus. What is on your master bus when they're mixing? And we had this exact discussion about limiting and how whereby. Um, we would put that on the end just to hear, get an idea of what it's gonna sound like in the mastering phase. Absolutely. And, um, I can't remember if he said that he was mixing into it throughout the whole session. You're probably like savi It came in at the end. Yeah. But, um, audience listening is, is a great, great thing to do. I, I

Adrian Hall:

am, I am mixing into a, a mix bus chain from the.. So like I say, if I have, you know, if I have a band in and I want the SSL sound, then I'll put that on right at the start of the mix. Mm-hmm., um, or even if I'm mixing in the box, then, you know, there's a few things in there to emulate kind of analog saturation. So as I mix. It, it's on all the time. I might adjust it, but it's, it's on from the start of the mix. Um, and the limiter is on there, but just bypassed, you know what I mean? Yeah. So at any point I can just go, okay, what's it sound like if I crash this by five or six dv? Um, but yeah, the, the, the, the mix bus is more for color and um, that kind of thing of, uh, a little analog flavor if you want it or not. You know, I have a tape machine emulation, a u a D one, but I mean, use whatever you like. Um, you know, so I can instantly go, oh, does this sound better at 15 ips or 30 YPs? Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, you get a flavor through the mix right from the start.. Marc Matthews: Yeah. It's, so, I I, so you are running that throughout the whole mix process. Yeah. And then you are rendering, bouncing, whatever it may be, printing, printing the mix with all that stuff on Yeah, with all that. Yeah. The only thing that doesn't get printed is, is the final loud limiter. Limiter, yeah.

Marc Matthews:

Yeah. Fantastic stuff. I love that. It's, it is giving three for four now, cuz I, when I've done mixes, I've, I've, this, this, I've had the, the tape emulation. But for whatever reason, I take it off at the end, which is just gonna. it's going to, um, it's not gonna represent what I've mixed into right at the end, you

Adrian Hall:

know, think about that. I mean, it's, it's surprisingly, you know, even, I mean, well, what I found, and you know, your listeners may disagree, is, is that the tape I like to use, I don't slam tape. Like you would maybe get away with in the old days of a, if you had an actual half inch machine. Yeah. So what I find is if you're actually pushing it into the red, then it doesn't really distort like tape. It's kind of like that. But I'm kind of using it where it's designed to be used. The round zero vu. Yep. Does that make sense? So you kind of, you know, I'm not pinning the meters, you know what I mean? Maybe plus one just slightly into the red, but I'm a round zero vu. That's where it's designed to be hit on in an ideal world. And it's one of those things where it, what I want it to do is I want it to be disappointing when I bypass it. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like, it's not like you put the plugin in and you go, oh my God, my mix sounds amazing. That's sorted out all my problems. It's more like, oh, if I bypass it, it just feels a bit, oh, it's not, you know, it's better with it in, it's just a little bit of flavor, the little bit of harmonic distortion that our ears like, little bit of saturation, but I'm not caning it, you know what I mean? Um, and it's there from the start as a flavor, you know, I'm mixing into it. And if, if I want a more clean mix, then I'll probably be running at 30. Yeah, yeah. Or not at all? If I want, if it's a pop thing, I might not use the, the tape machine, cuz it doesn't get you that clean, super punchy, bright, open pop thing. Then I'll be just doing digital something. Yeah. Uh, likewise, if it's an organic band, then sure. I might run it at 15 nips. They want it to sound like their favorite records, which, you know, don't have that extended top end. There's, you know, there's a bit of high frequency saturation that the tape is doing. So, you know, kind of, it depends on the situation. There's no one size fits all.

Marc Matthews:

Yeah. That's the beauty of music, I think in, in, in creating and mixing. The fact that you can go in and you can be creative, you can try things and put something absolutely plug in. I'm, I'm speaking from the mixing in the boxing cause that's primarily what I do. But you can put something on something and there, there is no hard and fast rule, um, in terms of what you can and cannot do. Absolutely. What you can create, which is the great thing

Adrian Hall:

about it, you know.. Yeah. And the plug-ins are so good nowadays. Yeah. The the emulators and, and, and the, I remember when plugins, you know, when I first, when they first came out, when I, you know, back in when I was at Metropolis and we were mixing on analog consoles and, and the plug-ins that they all kind of sounded the same. Mm-hmm. do, do you know what I mean? It was like, well, you know, okay, this might look like it's one type of EQ and another one might look like a different type of eq. But actually they were all kind of doing the same kind of things.. Uh, and if you match the cues and the frequencies, they weren't massively different. Um, which they are in the analog world, you know, like if you boost, you know, three K on an ssl, it sounds very different than boosting three K underneath. Yeah. You know, whatever they're doing. The bell shape, the curve, the harmonics that generates all that, it's very different. But the early days of plugins, they were kind of all the same. Um, and that's very much different now. Do you know what I mean? Plugins have color, they have personalities, or some of them do. Um, Uh, and likewise you can get the super surgical plugins that you couldn't ever do with an analog eq. Um, I mean that's an interesting topic in itself actually, cuz occasionally I'll get sent proto sessions with, you know, where other people have got it to a certain level and they send it to me to mix and they send me their whole session if they're working in pro tools. And one of the common things I see is, um, a lot of EQing of very specific narrow frequencies that basically make no difference when I bypass. So somebody spent an awful lot of time and effort to pull out, you know, tiny amounts on really narrow Q bandwidths, uh, out of, out of a vocal or something. And really it's like, hmm, uh, this makes no difference when I bypass it, so I'm just gonna get rid of the plugin. Yeah, yeah. Um, so it, I think one, are the benefits of, you know, coming up with that training on analog consoles is that actually EQ primarily is a tone sculpting., you know, all the records, you know and love from, well, basically anything before mid two thousands, which were mixed on analog desks. Um, you know, the, nobody's super fine sculpting vocals. It's all big moves, tonal control. Um, uh, so yeah, you know, don't, I would say to your listeners, you know, if you're EQing stuff, go for tone and. Uh, the color that you want. First big moves, broad cues. You know, use the vintage style leak cues first to to shape the sound where you want it. And then sometimes there might be some super specific things you can notch out. But you know, don't waste half an hour notching out. six different frequencies with a queue of 30. Do you know what I mean?. Marc Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's really interesting you mentioned that because, um, I, I, I, I live in the, the realm of TikTok, et cetera, and on that, and I've seen a video, I saw it this weekend and it was a video on, um, EQing vocal, right. And there was the, the roll off of the low end. Sure. And then there was just multiple tiny, like the tiniest cue, uh, just dropping frequ. Yeah. And I'm thinking like, what is that doing? Yeah. What could that possibly be doing to that, to that sound? And it's, and, and it kind of leads me on nicely to this next question in the, um, the sort of like the difference between sort of a novice mix and a, or a beginner mix maybe, and sort of a radio. uh, friend, radio friendly or maybe a professional mix. Yeah. Um, kind of everything you've mentioned up until this point, sort of like leads onto this question. What, what would be the primary difference between the two? So if you are just starting out mixing, what should you not be doing?, . Adrian Hall: Um, I obviously a, a big topic. Yeah. Um, what are the uh, I guess the most fundamental thing? Um, and there's a nice story, actually, I'll tell you about this. It. It, it, the fundamental thing is, is balance, right? Um, and I remember this, this was, I introduced to me very early on in the game, um, cuz I, I assisted, I had the good fortune to assist, uh, a guy called Bill Price, who is, who's no longer with us, but he's a legendary British engineer. He's worked with everybody. He, he produced half of nevermind the Bollocks for the Sex Pistols. He produced the Clashes Sand Easter Mixed Guns N Roses back in the day. Worked with Paul McCarney, you. Bri Bri, brilliant engineer. I think he was in-house at Air Studios in the eighties or something on, on West Six. But um, so I was assisting him on a Clash Live album. And part of my job at the start of the day was to put the reels on, you know, get the faders up, check everything's coming through the label, the desk, all that kind of stuff. And I remember some of these live tapes, obviously they're live recordings, so they'll come through and they're pretty ropey, you know. So I pushed the fades up and I remember there was, I can't remember which, which track it was, but there was one time when I went, oh, this one's, this one's a bit of a mess. Uh, you know, you, you'll love fun with this one bill. You know? And so, so I kind of, you know, left him with the multitrack, this is a metropolis, uh, went upstairs, make a cup of tea for the two of us and bring it back down, you know, um, you know, it took me five minutes, you know, so, but by the time I came back down, the multi-track had gone from what I perceived to. You know, a real mess, real problem to solve, to sounding like a clash album in five minutes. Wow. And I looked at the desk and he'd barely done anything. Um, it was just the balance. It was all in the faders. Yeah. You know, he knew how to balance the, the, the drums and the bass against the guitars and where the vocals sat against all of that. Um, and Bill was. You know, minimal mixing engineer anyway. But, um, it, it was just that the balance was right for that band and that genre, and he knew how to get it., you know what I mean? My first instinct at that point would've been, you know, had, you know, I was still training, would've been to dive in with the EQs and fix stuff. Yeah, yeah. Um, which, you know, obviously he went into, you know, the mix wasn't done in five minutes. You know, he went into that later on. But it, it was just that first impression of, oh wow, this sounds like music now. Cuz the balance is musically making., do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. Yeah. The parts are all working together. Nothing's swamping, nothing's too loud, too quiet, you know? Um, which is a testament to the band too. But, um, that, that was, that was a real eye opener. Um, and, and then later on as, as, as my training progressed, uh, and I assisted more and more mixed engineers, it was that thing of, um, like I would look. People's mixes on the board. That's one of the benefits of being an assistant. And the old way of training is that, you know, at the end of the night, it'd be your job to recall everything. Print the whatever, vocal up, vocal down base, up, base down, you know, instrumental TV track masters At the end, maybe the engineers stayed, maybe he didn't. So you got to see what, what they did, you know, and, and listen to, oh, what has he done with a vocal? Put the, put the EQ in and out on the desk or on, you know, on the outboard gear they're using. Oh, I see what that's doing. And, and none of these guys who were great engineers, I assisted, you know, Alan Molder, Steven Fitz Morris, um, Jim Abyss, uh, so many, so, you know, loads of great mixes passed through metros. Um, and there was no magic frequency. There was nothing on the desk that they were doing any different than what I was doing., but it was just that level of attention to detail. You know, it wasn't like a mold's vocal sound or snare drum sound was some magic, f magic frequency in the SSL that nobody else used. You know, everybody had the same tools, do you know what I mean? Um, which is kind of like it is today as well. You know, everybody's got the same plugins, more or less, you know, stuff that does the same thing. So it was just the attention to detailed and the, and the tiny, tiny changes that, the 10,000 tiny changes that they'd done to everything across the whole desk or, or in the, you know, in the box nowadays, there was no magic secret source, which I was kind of, you know, led to believe. Oh, you know, maybe if I just find that magic kick drum f., you know, is it 80 hertz or 90 hertz? Or maybe it's 65 hertz. I don't know. Do, do you know what I mean? Yeah. There was nothing like super special. It was, they were kind of doing what everybody else was doing, uh, which was, you know, a a again, that was another lesson. It was like, okay, it's actually the reason their mixes sounds so good is because they've made 10,000 tiny decisions. It's not like some amazing secret that only they knew. do, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Um, so again, I think, you know, there's a lot of stuff with the internet about, oh, this is the magic source. Yeah. Well, the silver bullet, yeah. It, it might help you. I'm not saying it's not, but it's not and and it's not gonna apply in every case. Yeah. Do, do you know what I mean? Um, depending on the aesthetic of the band and, and, and what the artist wants, whether they want it to sound that way. Do, do you know what I mean? Um, yeah. Yeah. If you are mixing the drums for, you know, a, a super hype, I don't know, a really heavy rock band, as opposed to mixing the drums for a band that wants to sound like Neil Young, it's gonna be very different, your approach. Mm-hmm. or should be different . So there's no, you know, there's no magic formula that's always gonna work. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Balance. Mm-hmm., um, be, be bold with. With your EQ and, and, and tonal changes, you know, if something wants to be bright, then make it bright. Yeah. You know, um, if something needs to be, you need to pull all the mid-range out of it, then do it. You know? Um, don't, don't be too subtle with it. I, I think somebody said that to me early on when I was, when I was, you know, still in assistant metropolis, like, they listened to one of my mixes and he was one of the other assistants actually. Um, and he said, oh yeah, you, you're being very conservative with your eq. and I kind of took, I was like, okay. Yeah. Um, particularly I, I know like your audience, um, there's a lot of synth Yeah. A lot of synth kind of fanatics in, in your crowd. And, and the great thing about synth and, and in instrumental music or, or synth based type music is that there's not, uh, your ear doesn't know what to expect. Do you know what I mean? If you hear somebody singing, you hear a vocal or an acoustic guitar. It kind of has to sound a certain way because that your, your ear is used to hearing that in the real world. Whereas with the synth, you can, you can eq you know, 20 db at three K into it or pull out whatever, completely roll off the top. There's, there's absolutely no rules because there is nothing natural, you know, sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, you know, particularly with those kind of instruments or synth drums, same thing. You know, there's no, it doesn't have to sound a certain. Uh, so you can be really bold with the, with, with, with the way you shape the sound in the way that you can't, if it's an acoustic kind of band. Does that make sense? So it, it does, yeah. And I, yeah, you can. You can be really bold with. Yeah, I mean, like I've, I've got sent some syn type tracks recently, and again, everything's really big and wide and stereo. So if everything's big and wide and stereo, then it's, it's almost like giant mono. It doesn't necessarily feel wide because you've got one wide synth sound on top of another wide synth sound. Actually, you'll, it'll make, it'll feel wider if you pan one synth sound as a mono sound all the way to the left, and a completely different synth. As pan it all the way to the right, both sides. So you've got differences in the left and right. Mm-hmm.. And that will make it feel wide. Yeah. Um, in a way that you can't do if everything's just coming up the middle. A hundred percent wide stereo. Yeah. Um, . So yeah, you with sin stuff you can really go to town with it. There is, you know, there's no need to be notching out tiny frequencies and getting specific with it., you know, be bold with it, you know? Yeah,

Marc Matthews:

I I it's fantastic that you meant to know about the stereo width of the symp track, cuz my question was, you, you preempted my question, which was gonna be, how do you stop that wide stereo spread from sounding mono? And it's exactly like you said there is where you. You have the different tomber, I guess you could call it, of your synth instruments on the left and right. So yeah, to have that, that difference.

Adrian Hall:

A a. Absolutely. And I mean, uh, I think it's, I think the temptation is to go down the route of, oh, I'll, oh, I'll, I'll just use a stereo widener on this center, not that one. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the, I mean, not that anybody's that bothered about mono compatibility these days, but it, it, it kind of still. Does affect some playback devices. Um, you know, like, uh, my daughter had a, uh, some kind of boombox thing or docking station and there was one speaker on it. Do, do you know what I mean? So, yeah. Yeah. In, in, you know, 2020. So you're kind of going, okay. Uh, that's, that's odd. And obviously if you're listening out of a phone, it's effectively mono. Or, or any other kitchen radio type source. And the thing, the danger with stereo wideness is that actually anything that gets wider in stereo usually cancels a bit in mono. Um, so you have to be careful about using them because something that you wanted to be massive and wide. Actually, if it's playback on something that's more like a mono device, like I forget which it is, is it an Alexa or a home pod? One of those two is effectively a mono speaker. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, you know, even nowadays there are mono playback devices. So, uh, you know, you, you should check in mono, really just the check that's not completely disappearing. Mm-hmm., uh, I mean, yeah. It's, it's, it's tricky. It's tricky. Yeah.

Marc Matthews:

What are your thoughts on mixing in mono. Out of interest.

Adrian Hall:

Uh, I, I don't mix in mono. I, I check in mono. I I will definitely check in mono. Um, but although I check in mono, I, I, I have two speakers, so, um, those are my speakers, so, oh yeah, you got the, the Gen X that, uh, can, where is it? You see that? Yeah. Yeah. So, so there you go. That's the main Gen X. And then up here, these little aton guys.

Marc Matthews:

Oh, I've seen that. I've seen those in so many studios. The

Adrian Hall:

little, yeah, little mix cubes, they're called. Um, so I, I have two of those. There's another one. Oh, there you go. That's much better set up. Um, so the, the atones are like, you know, the, the crappy car radio or kitchen kitchen hu kitchen stereo. Um, so I use those to a checking mono.. Um, but I'm, I'm still listening through two speakers. Yeah. So it's, yeah. Yeah. It's mono through two speakers, not, not true single speaker mono. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll check it. Absolutely. Absolutely. For, mainly for things like balance and rides. So say for example, you have a guitar or synth pan, one side and your vocals coming down the middle and it's a call, an answer thing. I've just done this on a mix. Um, so the call and answer thing sounds great in stereo cuz you can hear., the, the, the counterpoint away from the vocal very clearly. Yeah. In stereo. Mm-hmm.. But if you put it in mono, then they both sit on top of another one another. So you have to make sure that the guitar pokes through where it needs to and the vocal comes back. Um, so that's kind of what I use to, to check mono. It's more that the music still makes some kind of sense in mono. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? The interplay between the instrument., uh, can I hear that bass fill? Can I hear that guitar fill? Mm-hmm., can I hear all the lyrics on the vocal? You know, um, that's kind of what I check in on usually at quite a quiet level. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, if that makes sense. It's so I don't mix. Obviously it's, you know, 2023. No, nobody's mixing for dedicated mono unless you really wanna punish yourself, you know. So, , um, or, or the aesthetic you're mixing for is that it's mono. Do you know what I mean? If it's, yeah. Yeah. I can't, I mean, I can't even think of an example now, but maybe some of the retro type stuff. I mean, I know DEP King's, you know Mark Ronson's banner? Yeah, yeah. Their stereo. Very much so. But if you were being super authentic or trying to recreate something, you might mix for Mono only, but I've never.

Marc Matthews:

No, no No, it's interesting. It's a, I often ask these questions a bit when it comes to mixing, um, and mixing in mono. Yeah. Because like yourself, I use it primarily just to make sure, like you mentioned there, about, so everything has its place and I can hear everything that I need to hear when I should. Yeah. And nothing's masking anything else. Yeah.

Adrian Hall:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think actually just, uh, I've just thought of something like, I, I dunno if, if a lot of your listeners are mixing on headphones or only or something. Yes, yes. Yeah. I. It, it, it, it's great. Don't get me wrong. The headphones are amazing, um, for any number of things, uh, particularly for checking, edits and whatever, but there is a danger with them where it comes to, uh, Uh, phase and the perception of phase, particularly phase cancellation on headphones, like your headphones can actually be completely out of phase, which on a, on a pair of speakers would, would turn your head inside out. You get that really uncomfortable feeling where, you know, there's nothing in the middle and, and Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Feels like you're half underwater.. Yeah. That doesn't happen on headphones. At least not to my, my ears like it, it's very interesting. Like I can put a mix completely out of phase and it'll sound different, but it won't. Like, it's making me sick in a way that it does when your speakers are completely out phase. Yeah, do, do, do, do you, do you know what I mean? You know that feeling? Mm-hmm.. Marc Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's been a very long, long time since I've experienced it. I think it was when I was at university and we, we did a trial just to see what it, what, what it was like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, so, I'm, I'm, obviously, I'm not talking about your whole mix being out phase. Hopefully it's not, I'm talking about individual elements within that being out of phase or phy. Yeah. It's actually quite hard to hear on he.. Yeah. Uh, which is something that presents itself immediately on speakers. So, you know, like I say, headphones, I, I definitely check my mixes on headphones. I spend a good amount of time, you know, um, particularly with vocals and editing and clicks and pops and that kind of stuff on headphones, you know, um, because you are removing the environment so you can have it quite close to, you can hear all that stuff in a really detailed way, which is great. Um, . But I think again, sometimes when you're mixing on headphones, because you can hear all the detail, you're not as bold as you should maybe be. So the the trouble I've had with headphones, if I do a mix too long on headphones and then I put it back on the speakers, it always feels a bit flat. Mm-hmm. because I can hear all the details and I can hear that second guitar part. I don't hear all the vocal harmonies cause it's really close to my head. But when you put it on speakers in the real world, sudden. E everything doesn't quite pop out as much as you were used to on headphones. Yeah, I

Marc Matthews:

I guess it's, cuz it's with, with the headphones, it's inside of your head, isn't it? The sound is, is in here. Yeah.

Adrian Hall:

Yeah. And usually it's a bit louder and, and you have no real world noise and distractions. Mm-hmm.. So, I mean, don't, don't get me wrong, it's, it's like I understand it's a budget choice as well for a lot of. Um, and headphones are great and you can get some great headphones nowadays, but I would say if, even if you check your mixes on a pair of budget speakers, it'll give you a real world, you know, kind of perspective on it. Yeah, I mean, what we used to do in the old days was, you know, you'd classically you'd spend all day in front of the, on the SSL in front of the speakers, you know, um, but as soon as you walked to the back of the room and sat down on the., you would hear your mix differently. Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's just a different perspective suddenly, or, I mean, amazingly like when somebody else walks in the room, even if you're sat in exactly the same place, just having somebody else in the room makes you hear your mix differently. even though it's not one of the band or the producers. Yeah. I dunno if your listeners have ever experienced that, but I

Marc Matthews:

I'm not, is that, is that to do with the psychological of having someone else in the room? Yeah. Just, just there present with you and Yeah. Knowing someone else is there and you start to perceive your mix differently cuz someone else is listening to it. Yeah,

Adrian Hall:

exactly. It takes you out of that focus of you being so into the details and suddenly makes you listen. From an objective listener's point of view, you know, somebody who's just walked in the room. Yeah. Um, but yeah, you know, definitely sit on the sofa at the back or listen from the doorway with a cup of tea or something, cuz it will get your head back into that kind of fresh space where you're not hearing it the same way you've been hearing it for the last two hours with your head down in front of the speakers. Yeah.

Marc Matthews:

Um, oh, great advice, great advice. Um,, Adrian Hall: sorry I'm no, no, it's fantastic. I've got, I've got one more question, and this question comes from a community group. So this is from a producer from called Blockhouse. I think his name's Nick, if I remember Right, right. Okay. Um, I'm gladly asked, asked this question because it, it touches on the Pache mode. Enjoy the silence Live in Berlin video, which I have rinsed and repeated so many times. It's so good.. Um, and he says, uh, he's interested in your, uh, work recording live. Um, it says, in my own experience, live performances can lose something when they're recorded. So what do you do to ensure that the recording captures the energy and atmosphere of the live show in the mixing process?

Adrian Hall:

Okay. Yes. Um, it, it, it's interesting you talk about the Depeche mode one actually, because, um, before. Uh, it was Daniel Miller, who was the head of Mute, who I, I did a lot of work for at the time. Um, uh, and he asked me to mix the Depeche mode. Mm-hmm., uh, five one. I'd never worked with the band before. Um, and his specific brief to me was, I want to be able to hear. The crowd interaction and I want to hear the crowd singing when they sing. Yeah. Because he felt that was always lacking from, from previous versions. And, and obviously if you go to a Depeche Mode gig, you know, there's a load of hardcore fans down the front. Yeah. Particularly with something like enjoyed silence. So really it's part of that atmosphere, um, the way they interact, you know, not obviously what makes a life recording exciting hopefully. So his specific instruction was, make sure you get as much of that as you can. And at, uh, the, uh, in Berlin that they were actually doing two nights there with a day off in between. So we actually had the benefit of being able to put mics up on the first day, and then I had a day. Where, where I could listen to the mixes, you know, do, do some quick mixes and listen to the recording from the first night before we had, before they played the second night. So we actually changed some of the mic positions of the, uh, audience capture mics of, for the second night. Um, cuz we were trying to capture that front row. Yeah. So I mean this is very specific. It in a venue sometimes, you know, we, we put up extra ambience mics hanging from the, you know, upper balconies and stuff and, and, and where the front of house position is. But they often, they're often capturing the sound in the room. So it's almost like you are recording the venue, the pa. Yeah, it's not actually got that much crowd in it. Does that make sense? Because the crowd It does. Yeah. The most interactive part of the crowd is at the front of the audience. So actually we had Mikes on the stage behind the pa, just behind the pa, but pointing at the front row of the crowd, um, which were immensely useful for capturing that live energy. Yeah. And it, it, it worked out well. You know, it worked out well. Um, it, it capturing a good life show is obviously, you know, the, the band have to give it. And obviously Depeche Mode are great, you know, the mm-hmm.. Yeah. It's a fantastic, fabulous band. You know, the energy they all have on stage from, from, you know, Dave the singer to, to Christian, the drummer, um, Pete Gardino, plan Keys, you know, I mean, they're all, they're all brilliant. So what, what they're giving you is fantastic to start with. Um, and then obviously if you capture the crowd properly, then you've got that interaction, which, which is, is, is is gold. You know, it's, it's is, it is what you're going for. Um, and, and then the only thing is not to make it sound too studio. So obviously you want the instruments to sound good, um, but the, the energy from the crowd, if you mix the crowd too low, It's particularly on a big stage like Depeche mode. You know, the, the guitar amps are 20 feet from the keyboards and they're 20 feet from the drums, so it's almost like you're in a studio anyway.. Yeah. Yeah, because the spill, the spill on stage is so low. Um, so you're not gonna get that interaction. You need the audience mics to make it f make it have that energy. Um, and then you just gotta be careful not to mix. of the, of the, of the final product, you know? Yeah. Um, in, in a smaller venue, if, if your audience members are recording their own live gigs and things, then you know, like I say, definitely try and get Mike's. Maybe on the stage, but pointing at the crowd, if you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and then the energy of what comes down. The vocal mic. If there is a vocal mic on stage, like you're gonna get a lot of spill from the crowd down that vocal mic. So again, obviously you have to turn it down, but don't completely gate it out because it's gonna sound really odd when it comes in and out, comes back in. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and actually you, you do get a kind of certain ambience from the crowd going down the vocal mic and then into whatever vocal reverb you're using mm-hmm.. So don't clean it up too much. Yeah. It's, it's, it's tricky. It's really hard. It involves immense amounts of fader. Like you look at the lead vocal fader on, on that Depeche Man thing or any other live things I've done and you know, it's, it's, I turn it down maybe 10 db when it's, when the singer's not singing and they're back up or whatever. But it's all about the rides, the fader rides. Yeah. Yeah. Um, . Does that that make sense? It does, yeah, it does. It's all quite technical, quite esoteric really. But, um, no, no, I

Marc Matthews:

think, I bet you're exactly right. I remember when I played in live, live gigs and we sometimes record them and it, a lot of it was, I remember we did one recording and then it was mix. But it was mixed to sound like a studio recording and then Yeah, you just, just, just lost everything. The fact that it was live, it might be cuz we played quite bad, it's quite possibly what it was. Um, but yeah, I think capturing the audience, it's, it's huge and I think that's why I love that video so much cuz of the interaction in it. Did you replace. Because I know you said you didn't have any issues with Spear. Well, the, obviously the spill was minimal. Yeah. But did you replace any particular sounds? Did you any overdubs in it? Or

Adrian Hall:

is it just all, there are no overdubs in that. That's as it came off stage. I mean, I, wow. You know, there would've been a couple of edits. Mm. In terms of like, oh, you know, I might've just nudged a couple of things because, you know, somebody came in early or something. But there's no fixes with a, with a band like that, I mean, You know, they're obviously great musicians. They've been touring for years. They know exactly what they're playing. Um, no, there's no, there's no, I'm not, I'm not having to conversate anything and there were certainly no overdubs. Um, You know, I mean, I think albums in the live albums in the seventies, you know, the, there were a few notable ones that kind of actually were basically replayed in the studio . Um, but not, no, no, certainly not with Depeche. Mad, no, no need

Marc Matthews:

to do When you, when you, you've honed your skillset to that extent, then Yeah. Like I said, they've been playing for so long, it's, yeah, absolutely. And absolutely it must have been absolute joy to, um, to work.

Adrian Hall:

Oh, it's a total pleasure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Marc Matthews:

yeah. It's a fantastic, I'm probably gonna watch it again after this interview., I watch it quite frequently cause, and it's, I don't, I think it's also, it is gone off on a bit of tangent now, but it's the visual in the background as well. Yeah. It's kind of like you look at it and it's. It's the sound and it's the visual and it's the performance and everything in it.

Adrian Hall:

That's, that's Anton Corbin. Obviously, he's a genius what he does and, you know, has had a alarm collaboration with the band. So yeah, the visuals on that whole thing were, were incredible. You know, the projected big projector screens and stuff and, um, yeah, it was, it was, yeah, it was quite an experience, you know, uh, I actually saw their show in London. Uh, the oh two first to meet some of the crew and whatnot and sort out technicalities. And then, yeah, I was flown out to Berlin. Spent three days in Berlin with them, but, um, yeah, I mean, yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. All, all the crew around them as well, you know, just first, right. All of them. Stunning, you know.

Marc Matthews:

Fantastic. Adrian, we're coming up to the hour mark now, so, uh Oh, really?? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I tell you, I've got all those questions written down. I, I never get through them all, but, which is fine. It's one of those organic things. It's just conversation and the questions come up. That's why I'm sort of like writing as you're talking. Oh, I wanna ask that in a minute and ask that bit. Um, but once big thank you for joining me on this today, and I know the audience are gonna get so much out of this. These, these interviews are great. When we talk top, when I talk to, um, mix engineers and producers and whatnot, um, I, I almost wanna learn a bit more about your work. Where can they find you?

Adrian Hall:

Uh, I just through my website, I guess, um, ww dot Adrian hyphen hall, h a l o.com. Um, it's got a list of credits and whatnot and, and, you know, various, various music videos including the Depeche Mode thing, I think. Yes, yes. Um, Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, you know, I'm, my email's up there as well, so if they want to get in touch, feel free. You know? Brilliant. I'm, I'm not at that level of mix engineer where somebody's screening all my messages and all that kind of stuff, you know, it's, it's just me. So . Yeah. Yeah,

Marc Matthews:

yeah. Brilliant. I will put that link in the, um, the episode notes as well. So,

Adrian Hall:

uh, any questions that people have, you know, if, if people wanna ask me something, I'm happy to, as a follow

Marc Matthews:

up. Brilliant stuff. Alright, I will let you enjoy the rest of your Sunday today. And, uh, once again, a huge thank you for joining me on today. Oh, thank you for having me.

Adrian Hall:

Brilliant. Cheers buddy. Cheers, mark. Bye. Hi, this is Carl from Neon Highway. My favorite episode of Inside the Mix podcast is episode 46 with sunglasses kid. Sunglasses kid. Absolutely has his finger on the post I've synth music and modern songwriting. In this episode, you'll hear him walk through his approach and his own experiences with creating a name for himself in the scene.

Behind the Glass: Adrian Hall
Can't tell if it's analog or digital?
Choosing the right mastering service
Amateur vs. Pro mix: Spot the difference
Mixing in mono: Is it important?
Headphone mixing: Avoiding phase issues
Capturing the vibe of a live performance

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