#66: What is Mastering in Music? | Mitchell Dyer

In this episode, I'm joined by mastering engineer Mitchell Dyer.  We discuss everything from how to become a mastering engineer to how to master streaming services to writer's block rehab.

Topics include: what causes writer’s block? How to start a song, what to do with a mix before mastering, how to pick a music mastering service, music mastering myths and misconceptions, and reading mastering meters

To follow Mitchell Dyer, click here: https://ondemandsongwriter.com/
To follow Mitchell Dyer on TikTok, click here: https://www.tiktok.com/@ondemandsongwriter

Transcript

Marc Matthews: 0:02

Hey, this is Chris aka a Helsinki Project and you can catch my latest single Cigna X on Bandcamp and all major streaming services. All of them good enough about me cause you're listening to the Inside The Mix podcast. And here is your host, Mark Matthews. Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. I'm Mark Matthews, your host, musician, producer, and mix and mastering. You've come to the right place. If you want to know more about your favorite synth music artists, music, engineering and production, songwriting and the music industry. I've been writing, producing, mixing, and mastering music for over 15 years, and I wanna share what I've learned with you. Hey folks, and welcome back to The Inside The Mix podcast. If you're a new Li listener, welcome and don't forget to hit that subscribe button, and if you're a returning listener, welcome back. So in this episode, I'm very excited to welcome our guest today, Mitchell Dyer. Uh, so with nearly two decades of songwriting and mastering experience, thousands of artists songs reviewed and hundreds of songs personally recorded Michel Dyers now on a mission to help other songwriters take their music careers to. Level using his proprietary four step Guide to Eliminating Songwriters book, which will come onto a bit later. So Mitchell has helped dozens of artists break out of their own mental Joe, I love that term, and instead create music that supports a career in the music industry. So in this episode, he's gonna share with us tips and techniques to overcome writer's block, and we're also gonna delve into mastering as well, which we haven't done on the podcast in the past 61 episodes, which I'm amazed at. So I'm really excited about that. All right, Mitchell, thanks for joining me today. And how.

Mitchell Dyer: 1:38

So good. A little tired. Marc Matthews: Yeah. Fantastic. So for the audience listening, it's 1:00 PM in, uh, in England and it's 6:00 AM where Mitchell is. So, um, , it's e it is good for me, but less so for the interviewee sometime in terms of the time zone. Um, but what I'd like to start off with, uh, Mitchell, it's just a bit about yourself really, and, and the story behind you as a, um, and your work in the music industry. So you can tell our audience a bit about how your musical influences growing up and how you grew.. Mitchell Dyer: Yeah, it's, sense it's been since birth. Uh, it's an interesting background. My father's been in the entertainment industry as an opera singer for my entire life, and so he would always travel and. All across the world. I mean, we wouldn't really get to go with him, but we got to experience the ups and the downs that come with being in a music, entertainment, uh, career. Uh, but other than that, like, uh, we just grew up with music. My entire life, like music was pretty much everything and anything and, and I, from what I can remember, like music has always shaped like every phase of my life, and so, with that. I remember, I think just like most kids when they're, you know, growing up, a lot of them are like, I'm gonna be, uh, a firefighter, an astronaut, or a scientist. And I'm like, I have no idea what I'm, what I want to do. I'm just like, just as normal kid, just, you know, having a fun life. And I remember being in school and uh, and I was like hanging out with one of my buddies and he was playing guitar., this is like the first moment I knew that music was what I wanted to do and he, he started playing it. It was just so natural for me to just have a picture come to my mind and just make up and, and this melody as well. And so it was so natural for me just to create music and it was just, it flowed. I'm like, this is something I, I really, really wanted to do. after. Um, and so af that was back in 2009 when I, when I started to, when I decided I'm gonna like, pursue music. This is, this is something that I need in my life. And, and so it went on after, uh, you know, 15 years later, you know, being in two different bands and learning the business side and learning, you know, the creation side of just creating material and that just creating hundreds of songs being in different studios, recording music. And then just hungering, which led me to like, I wanted to understand like the ins and outs of the creation of a song, like taking what I had in my head and taking to the finish line of. A polished professional song that people could listen to and stream, which led me to becoming a mastering engineer because I would , it would get to the point where it was like, you go to the studio and you'd work with different engineers, that they were good enough where we were at, but I, I wanted more. I wanted just like, I wanted to unlock that, like what was in my head. And so getting to the whole process of. Becoming a mastering engineer, I realized like this is the biggest principle, uh, that I realized that that led me to, um, building, uh, a, a basically this program called the on-demand Songwriter. And it was, um, the ability to create songs on demand like, like instantly that people wanted to listen to. And the, the thing that I learned that led me to start teaching this and focus more on this than mastering and even like, I'm not even in a band anymore, just to focus really on this, was. Even if your music production's amazing, your mix and your masters sound completely just awesome. If the beginning, which is your songwriting is bad, then it all the rest is, is a complete waste of time, a complete waste of money. And maybe at first it's like, oh, this sounds really good, but it has a very short shelf life. But on the other hand, if you. An amazing song by itself that is just like, it connects, it makes people feel things and the mix and the ma like just basically, it's not very great, like the production stuff. It will perform a lot better with time because it's the song that communicates. to the listener and makes them feel something. It's not the, oh, this, you know, like the average listener's, like, oh yeah, like, I love the, the, the, the ten seven, the 1176 compressor, that they're using in this, and the average listener doesn't know. Yeah, the gear, all they know is they can tell what's a good song and what's not, and they can't, they can't tell like, oh, this, like, if you put'em back to back, like this mix was, you know, and mix and mastered was, was done like professionally here. And then like an average person did this and put 'em back to back, then they would notice. But just with an initial listen, they can say this is a good song or it's not. And so for me it's, I want to teach people. How to, how to go from, how to go from writing, just like these Okay. Lyrics and these, this, okay. Like song to actually like writing amazing songs so they don't have to rely completely on just like the, the mix and math. Mm.

Marc Matthews: 7:34

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. So, um, right at the beginning there, you mentioned that you've always been in a musical household, which is when I'm interviewing, um, artists, producers, engineers. It generally is that way. And it's interesting. Um, I've never has a, uh, an interviewee's parent been an opera singer. So that's, that's a first and that's amazing. And you got to see the ups and downs as you mentioned there. And then 2009, you went to, um, You sort of like were influenced to, to start that band. And once again, it's a similar pathway and it's similar to Pathway to my own. Cause I was in a band for years and years and years and the listeners probably know this cuz I'm, I mention it quite a lot, probably shouldn't. Um, and then I was in the studio and then I was just like, you know what? I wanna know how to do what that engineer's doing and I wanted to be on the other side of the glass. It's kind of similar, um, to your. So you then mentioned that you went into mastering. So mastering is an interesting one. I dunno about you, but, um, I, I do, I do mastering as well. And then when I was sort of trying to find my feet, trying to find a mastering studio to actually go in and get a bit of experience, I find quite challenging over in the uk. I dunno what it's like in America. Um, but it, it was quite challenging over here. I did find a couple, but How did you get your, I mean, did you do any experience in the studio or was it okay to just, you know what, I'm just gonna learn on the job and just, and, and just,

Mitchell Dyer: 8:50

So I guess to like add more context, it, it was the same process of like wanting to have more control cuz it was like, it started out with, I would love to learn. It started out, I wanna make, I want to just basically from start to finish, figure out how to do this. And so it started out with like, mastering actually wasn't even a thought at first. So I was like, I wanna learn how to mix, you know? And so I did, I did learn how to mix, uh, and, and, and it was like, oh, I need to learn how to record. Oh, okay. After I record, I need to learn how to mix. And so I learned like the whole process, cuz I was, I got to like each roadblock, each phase of saying, okay, I have a song, I have a band, we're in the studio. Okay, I need to figure out how to do this. And so we would record. I'm like, oh, I need to learn how to mix. So I would learn like how to mix. And then I, uh, there's just various programs, um, that I, that I just. Pretty much was presented online. And so I actually, there's a, there's a program, um, called Musician on a Mission that teaches you mixing and ma uh, mixing. And they say mastering, but the mastering was like an hour long where like not that much. And the, and obviously like the instructor wasn't in mastering and. I met a mastering engineer who actually has a program called, uh, it's mastering.com and his name's uh, Blake LaGrange, and he built this program and he's mastered, you know, he's a Grammy award-winning mastering engineer who built this amazing program that is so concise and so that's, and so at that point I decided to, I really like, there's something in me, like I wanna become a mastering engineer. There's something about it that just appeals to me, cuz I would get my mixes sounding okay and then the mastering would just completely fall apart. I'm like, this is, this is it. This is like the, the, the mecca of my experience in, in, in getting the sound I want. And so once I learned how to master, that's when I. Very confident in what sounds good and what doesn't. And so mastering.com is really, uh, really what gave me the experience and the confidence to, to, to get my ears, to get my, my, get the right tools and to know like how, what a good master sound sounded like. So,

Marc Matthews: 11:19

Cool. I've, I've heard of Blake LaGrange. He was on an, uh, a podcast I listened to, uh, six Figure Creative, I think it's called. And um, so I'm familiar with Blake LaGrange, and he, he did well to get master, was it mastering.com? I think he, he, he did very well to get that domain. Um, interested in how much that would've cost, depends on when you get it, I guess. Because that's, that's like, uh, uh, SEO keyword word heaven right there, mastering.com. Um, but yeah, so you kind of like, it was one of those ones where you're going through the process and you wanna figure out each stage as you, as you get to it. Um, and just I've, I've spoken to a few interviewees about this and they kind of wanna. um, keep, not keep it in house is the wrong word, but they're much like you. They w they they've, they've done the mixing part of things. Okay, I'm accomplished with mixing now, and now I wanna learn how to master it and just keep ticking these boxes. And I think there is a wealth of information online to help you with that. As you mentioned now, we're like mastering.com.. So that kind of leads us on nicely really to the next part, which is sort of help and information. So what I'd like to go onto now is sort of like overcoming songwriters block, which you've mentioned there in, in your, in your, um, response to my question earlier. So with regards to songwriting and creative, um, creative block, in your experience, can you tell our audience, like the main causes of songwriters block from, from people that you've spoken to, or individual individuals that you've.. Mitchell Dyer: Yeah, I mean, all depends on the person really, cuz everyone gets stuck in a different phase. And, uh, there's really two things. One is, A very, like very practical objective and one is just internally. So internally, I think a lot of people just have imposter syndrome that really holds them back like, I can't do this. And they're, and they start comparing themselves to other artists instead of just writing from where they are and what they know. And that is actually what makes the best. Is when you are authentically writing to your voice. And I think a lot of people try to, they get on TikTok and, and get on Spotify and they're, and they're, and they're chasing vanity metrics. Mm-hmm.. And you have to just like, turn off the, the, you know, the vanity metrics, turn your face away and you need to really focus on like really why you're, why you want to do music. And then enjoy the journey of that. And I think that's where you start writing music that comes. within that is real and authentic, and that's what people really want. Not, you know, and that's why people, I think pursue like, ah, I need a better production. I need to go mix, you know, mix and master. And so that's the other one. The, uh, the other one is creation is taking chaos, which is the, you know, the universe of the creation realm that's around us. And learning how to take that chaos and organize it into, you know, into, uh, you know, a con, uh, a just, what's the word I'm looking for? It's basically taking chaos and organizing. Yeah, organized chaos. Organized chaos. Yeah. That's really what it is. And so a lot of songwriters don't have a process in, oh, I, I don't wanna write a song. And it's like, Hey, what's the first step? They're like, uh, well, uh, it's whatever comes to me. And I feel like that causes a lot of stress, especially like it's easy at first to when you write your first one or two songs to basically like, they just kind of come to. But as you write more and more songs, you're like, oh, that's, I can't, that sounds exactly like the other song, . And so it's, how do I create variations, different iterations of a song, um, and, and do that like on a daily basis, especially when you want to turn it into career. Like, I think the other thing I've seen that causes a lot of writer's block is when they're put under pressure, you know, it's like, oh, I wanna be signed by a label. So they get signed by label and it's like, all right, you need to in the next. three months, you need to write 50 songs. And, and all of a sudden they're just, oh, and then they have zero songs come to them. And that's because they do not have a process to basically like, where, where do I go for inspiration? You know, like pulling from that. And then just plugging into like a specific like work process. Just like really anything you do like with mixing and mastering like you, like where do you start with the mix? Where do you start with master? There's a process around that. And I think songwriters don't really have a process. It's just like, oh, I guess I start with the lyrics or Oh, I start with the melodic idea. Like there's not a process. And so, uh, that I think when you don't have a process, major rider's block comes in. Yeah, I, I would agree with that. And I think imposter syndrome, so you mentioned that, I'll go with the first one, imposter syndrome. That comes up a lot. Um, I've mentioned it a lot on this podcast and I, I listen to other podcasts as well, and it's frequent, not only in in songwriting, but in, in many, many creative industries in general. And it's a hard one, imposter syndrome. I mean, I, when I started this podcast, I had imposter syndrome. I was thinking like, who's gonna listen to a podcast that I create? Is it gonna be as good as everybody else's? And you start comparing yourself, which is exactly what you said earlier. And then you have vanity metrics as well, which is, yeah. Uh, yeah, I mean that's a whole episode in itself in regards to like social media and stuff like that, man, it's, it's, uh, but then the, the organization side of things and the, well, rather the disorganization I totally agree with as well. Um, both with songwriting, mixing and mastering, as you say. So with regards to those, um, issues with regards to songwriting, what tools or resources are there that can help overcome, overcome songwriter's?

Mitchell Dyer: 17:29

Um, so there's, um, it, so for like, solely on like lyrics and like, if you want to like improve, like your word game, I wish I had my books with me. Um, there's, there's a song called Writing Better Lyrics. So I Pat Patson and he, I'm, I'm pretty sure he, he. Taught at, you know, Berkeley. But that's a really, really good book that I've read, um, because there's a, a lot of good practical exercises from that that help you practice the lyric form of things. Um, and I guess to plug myself, if you want to check out my TikTok on demand songwriter.com. And then I have a four, a free four step guide. Uh, it's, uh, it's called the Eliminating Songwriters Block. It's, it's literally four steps where you all, all the books and information. My experience from that, it's, it's what crafted this four step guide where it's really finding a hook, which is like what gets someone to listen to you and then creating like, and then it's, it's really. The step of you start with the lyrics and then at the end, the fourth step is where a basically like the, the song starts communicating. It's it's message and usually it's like you'll have like a song, I like a melody idea. And cuz it's usually a lot of people, they'll write in two ways. They'll write. which I've, I've found like both work. But this one's more, I think simple is where you start with the, basically your lyrics and they're all ready to go. And then you write melody around that. Uh, and then, and so that's, that's the way I've taken it. And so that's a great resource I offer. So, That is, uh, you can actually access that. I don't have a webpage quite yet for it, but, um, if you go to On-Demand songwriter on TikTok, uh, the link in my bio will give you free access to that four step

Marc Matthews: 19:34

guide. Fantastic. I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. So for the audience listening, there'll be, there'll be the link there, which, which, which can take you to that. Um, it's interesting you mentioned they're starting with lyrics cuz I've, being a songwriter myself, um, I, I always outsource the, the vocals and, and the lyrics as well, cuz the. When I was in the heavy metal band, I could write lyrics for heavy metal cuz it was quite easy. It was always quite dark, like witches and, and stuff like that. But when it comes to like, cuz now I do sort of like synth pop and things like, and music like that, I kind of struggle to come up with lyrics for it. What would you say to someone then who, um, isn't. proficient with lyric writing, and they wanna start with sort of like, I dunno, the melody first, or maybe a chord progression.

Mitchell Dyer: 20:15

Uh, so really this is when, when I've taught, um, one-on-one to songwriters, the first thing, the very, very first thing that you need to do in order to, uh, get instant inspiration. At any time, uh, is your and your streaming service. So if it's Spotify, I use title, uh, but you basically, I recommend building a playlist of your artist title it, whatever you want, your name or your artist name. And then from there, putting the th 30 to 50 songs of artists that Y inspire you, or I'd probably say artists. Have something in it that you want to sound like. So if it's like, for example, I love Phoebe Bridgers. Uh, and, uh, she like her, her lyrics, for example, her lyric writing and how like it flows. I put that in there in order for me to get in the lyric flow. So that's a good start. Um, if I wanted to get a particular sound, um, out of like my music, I'll add artists, like, I like Band of Horses for example. And so they have this like particular sound that like, oh, I want this like, , this alt rock, indie rock sound. And so I add artists that have that because then I can get my brain into the world, cuz where whatever you listen to is really like what you create. And so if you have, I call it an I R T playlist, an in in in inspiration reference track playlist. And so I learned about ref, like in mixing master., you use a reference track all the time. You, you need to because the client says, I want my song to sound similar to this. And in that you like, you'll know exactly, okay, these are the frequencies I need to boost. These are where I need to cut. Um, this is the kind of compression I need to, to use on like the drums. Like it makes it so you can get like a similar sound. And so I said, why not do it in songwriting? Have a reference track, like a whole playlist of reference track is, is what it is so that you, I wanna write a song that's like M 83. And so you pull up an M 83 song that inspires you and you're gonna find a starting place there. And so that is the first thing I tell everyone to do is. Build a playlist of reference tracks that you want to sound like and then use that whenever you want to start your songwriting just to get your brain like in, into that world so that you can start writing your own version of it. Of your like, of your

Marc Matthews: 22:59

Yeah, it's fantastic advice. And uh, mentioned what you mentioned there about mix and mastering is, is something that I do myself. And it's interesting you mentioned about a songwriting playlist cuz it's something I adopted about probably. Last couple months of last year. And for the audience listening, do do it. Take that advice cuz it really does help, it really, really does help kickstart the songwriting process. So I'm totally with you on that one. And you mentioned that about mixing and mastering and reference track, so it kind of leads on nicely there. Um, and nice segues it. Were into the next bit, which is about mixing. Uh, we're rather preparing for mastering, so we've got our mix or production. We're gonna prepare it for master. So can you tell our audience a little bit or maybe some key tips during the mixing recording that will help the mastering process?

Mitchell Dyer: 23:41

Yeah. Um, on this is probably the biggest advice and I think a lot of people, they never, especially if you're doing it yourself, uh, always separate your mixing from your master. Cuz a lot of, a lot of tutorials I've seen on YouTube, it's all right. We have it mixed and they like mix. They, they have their mix on a sub, on a. A mix bus and then on the master bus, they start doing all their processing on the mastering bus and it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You gotta keep your mixing separate, bounce it to one track once it's done, and then open a completely new session if you're gonna do it yourself. Because again, the problem that like really kills mixes and masters altogether is the more time you spend on a mix, the more time the. Objectivity you lose. And so it's really mixing. Mastering is a race against the clock because as you mix and master yourself, you get ear fatigue, which I didn't understand until I started just like. mixing, you know, mixing and, and doing a ton of mastering and understanding like over time, like what, how your ears interpret, like li interpret a song. And then when you rest and you listen to it, it's a completely different experience. I'm like, oh, this is totally real. Uh, and so really like, make, making sure that when you're mixing. Make sure it's like a completely separate project. Now, if you're going to be working with a mastering engineer, he like, the things you need to do in order to get your master ready is basically, if you do have anything on your master bus, um, for sure, remove a limiter. Do not have a limiter on there because it it, it makes it impossible for mastering Junior to do anything. Uh, and then, Really just like remove everything from your, from your master chain. Unless, unless you, unless like you're using your master chain as your, uh, your bus, your mix bus, uh, that would be my only recommendation, um, is if you're doing that, then just don't have a limiter on there. Just remove it and then when you do send it, make sure it's anywhere between. negative 12 negative nine dbs. So there's enough headroom for the mastering engineer to make, um, to make the, the broad EQ and compression, and then it also, it gives them enough. Space to actually tastefully add a, add the right amount of limiting in to be competitive, but also, um, just really, uh, uh, very transparent ma master master. So that those would be like my quick pieces of advice for preparing a mix for mastering.. Marc Matthews: Yeah. Excellent stuff. So just to sort of reiterate, you've got the separate sessions, which I think is pivotal and it is key. I've, I've never actually tried to master in a mix session, even when I was way back in the early days of my, my audio journey. And, um, I'm not entirely sure why you would do it. It seems crazy. Cause I think it also leads to you tinkering more with the mix. Mm-hmm. because, You'll start doing something mastering, you're like, oh, quickly go fix that in a mix. And then it knocks everything else outta whack as well. It's gotta be separate sessions all the way. So a hundred percent. And it's great that you mentioned there about how to prepare a mix as well to center a mastering engineer, because I get asked a lot how to prepare a mix and once again, the internet is full of information and a lot of conflicting information, so it's great to have that as well. So I, I think one key, key question then would be, so if you are in the process of outsourcing your mastery and you're looking for an. what should you look for? I mean, uh, are you looking for genre specific? Are you looking a portfolio does help. What, what would be the key thing to look for in, in outsourcing, mastering? Ooh, this is a very, very good question. Mm. Um, when it comes to looking for mastering en uh, mastering engineer, like what should you look for? Um, hmm. You know, this is a, i I, this is this. I guess the, the thing that I would do is just see like a before and after of what like a master would sound like type of thing. Uh, just because they can, um, Uh, uh, yeah, and maybe just getting on a, on a phone call with them and, and asking them questions. I think here's a question if you do get on a, if you message them or anything, is to ask them, um, what, uh, How would I put this? You asked him like how, um, what's the loudness measurement that, what's the loudest that you, um, I don't even know if like what the name of it is and I'm a mastering engineer. My brain is going completely blank cuz it's, um, when it comes to limiting, you have like how, like your loudness meter and so, What is that called? My brain is, it's the morning. It's totally morning. You're afraid

Marc Matthews: 28:45

to like the measurement of

Mitchell Dyer: 28:46

Yeah. Measurement of loudness and loves. You think of loves lus. Yeah. I, yeah, I believe it is lefts. Uh, if you ask them like, what's the, the how, what's the measurement? You, what's the loudest? You put a master with lefts and if they say negative six, do not use them. do not use them because Spotify will turn down. Your song because it's like negative six is like what they have set and they will turn it down because they're trying to, there's something called the loud, uh, the Loudness Wars. And I think it's been changing. I think a lot of people don't care about I because the, the, the philosophy is if it's like our ears perceive louder, music is sounding. And so it's kind of a, a cheat way of making your song sound better when it, it shouldn't. And, and that's starting to change. And so Spotify's put that there and so they're like, oh, negative six. Do not use them just because, like, uh, just because. Of, of that very specific reason. And so if they're saying negative nine or negative 12, um, that, that's preferable because a lot of the songs, it'll get slightly turn like turned up cuz that's again, so what Spotify's doing is trying to create normalization of the sounds. So that would be like, uh, a very, very big. To ask, uh, for sure. Also, if they say, I charge $35 to master, don't go to them because you want to pay like quality. But then obviously like the other side, like there's some people that I think, I mean it depends like if you're having, um, Like Abbey Road Studios mastering engineers, they actually charge fairly well for mastering. Um, but it's, you can, you can find great mastering engineers. Um, and this is maybe like a good tip if, um, a really good mastering engineer after having conversation, if they're charging a hundred dollars a master, that's money right there. Like that's a good value. And it's also like you can trust like. they know like they're putting their money where their mouth is because most of the master engineers that I have worked with and have learned with, um, that's more or less the range that they master in when, when they're first starting out. And obviously like there's studios and labels that. It's way more expensive. But that's, that's something you don't worry about once you're signed. But when you're, you're starting out as an independent artist, like that is like the sweet spot of how much you should pay for a good master at a good.

Marc Matthews: 31:26

Yeah, I agree with that. And I like what you said there, going back to what you, um, about the, the, the lus, the loudness units full scale and saying minus six, um, , um, specifically with streaming services. Yeah. It's a really interesting, and I think that's a good one to ask as well, cuz you know, for a fact if they're just pumping it and they're pushing it, they're just, it's like you said there, they're trying to make it sound. Better by it being louder. Um, which is also, I think another, a good bit of advice in that is it's quite useful sometimes to mix up low volume for that particular reason. Cuz if you just crank it and, and it is, it's human nature, if it's loud, it's, you think it sounds better and it's quite easy to get a caught in that trap. Yeah, a hundred percent. Which, which is quite, uh, quite a myth and it kind of moves on nicely to the next one there with regards to myths and misconceptions around mastering. So you kind, you kind of mentioned it there a bit with. To the, the, the loves, um, measurement, are there any sort of myths or misconceptions or maybe the biggest myth and misconceptions surrounding Mark?

Mitchell Dyer: 32:22

Um, that, uh, the biggest one is Blake LaGrange actually uses this example in his course is if, if you compare your mix to like a Honda Civic, you can only, uh, you, you can't turn it into like, A Lamborghini because your song is the way it's, it is, and you can make it sound like a, like a Honda version sports car. It could be like a, an Acura, which is like the luxury version of Honda. So you can do that because there's like, because of how the song is mastering can make it sound really polished, really professional. Like it can compete against the most professional songs, but you can't. Make like a folk song, sound like a pop song in in the sense of like sonically and very objectively, unless it's like already set like that where it's like a folk pop song in the mix and in your songwriting and in the music production. But there's these ideas that. Really, I think the simplest way that I'm trying to explain this is, oh, they can fix it in the master. If you're using the word fix, you're not ready to have it mastered your song. Basically, like, and this is what I learned from Musician on a mission, which is if you, if you know Rob Mays, he's an amazing dude, but he, he always says, Um, make your mix. Mix as if you're mastering, like make mix as though like you don't need any mastering. And I like that philosophy because you make it as great as it can sound in the mix. And so at the end, mastering is only. for polishing. It is literally the icing on the cake. Like you take a cake and you can eat it and it'll taste really good without icing. But man, if, if once you add icing to a cake, it's like, It's done. It's like, yeah, yeah. Chef's kiss, right?. Yeah. Like it's, that's, that is the, the, I think the simplest advice if you, if you're trying to get things fixed in the master, you're not ready to send, you're not ready for the mastering, um, phase of your song.

Marc Matthews: 34:40

Yeah, fantastic advice. And, uh, in the, in the UK we have a, we have a phrase for that and it's kind of like, make a silk purse out of a Sal's ear, uh, which is essentially what you're saying there as well. And it's also about what you say about, um, fixing it. And it, it goes back to recording as well. Cause I know when I was doing a lot of recording and you, you tell people like, get it right at sauce. You don't wanna fix it in the mix. And then, Moves on another level. Okay? Whereby you wanna get it right in the mix. You don't wanna fix it in the mastering, you know? And I totally agree with that. And there's a really good analogy I, I heard, I think I cannot remember the mastering in engineer. He said it though. You can imagine the mastering being like, you've got a window and your song is the window, and the mastering engineer is just there to like, Clean that window so you can see through it perfectly. And it's kind of, I always like that analogy of mastering, which I thought was quite nice, but definitely I totally agree with that. It should not be where you are fixing things. Then I have had it where I've had songs submitted and I've been told, oh, this is wrong, this is wrong. And I'm kinda like, well, you probably need to go fix that first before you send it to me, and then I'll do something with it. So, no, fantastic advice. So my last question with regards to mastery is, you touched on it earlier there with Spotify. And, um, the, the loudness wars as you say. Um, I think we've coming, I think we've gone past the loudness wars. I think. I think Death Magnetic With By Metallica was always the, the Pinnacle album for me when it came to the Loudness Wars . Um, yeah, I might go give that a listen actually. Actually I probably won't cuz I'll end up with air fatigue. You won't be able to do any more interviews today, . Um, but yeah, with mastering for streaming services, cuz they. What I've seen online and what I've read over the course of the previous years is that, I mean with Apple, with Spotify, um, and their title and various other platforms, Amazon with, if you are diy, mastering, if you're doing it yourself, have you got any sort of tips with regards to loudness? I mean, ultimately I think it should come down to what sounds good. If it sounds good, then, then generally it is good. You should go with your ears. But with regards to levels, have you got any advice with regards to that or, yes. Maybe misconceptions that you might read?

Mitchell Dyer: 36:45

Um, a misconceptions. Well, there's always, especially there's this toker, uh, like it is just a random TikTok. I wouldn't say a toker, but a TikTok I came across that was mastering advice who has, uh, contrasting it. It's, it's interesting and it has to do with your lefts level. Yeah, because there's some people that I think are a little bit. Again, because I do think there is the psycho, like this, this audio psychological thing that a song does sound like. I can't tell you when I was first learning how to master and I would send it to my family to like, what do you think? And they would like, oh, like when I compare it to like other songs on like Spotify, like Your sounds good, but these other ones sound better. And when I compared it, it was the other ones were louder. And so there is something. Psychologically, like, it's like, oh, the song's not very good when it, it could be an amazing song, but when you're putting it back to back comparisons with other songs that, uh, have, you know, the right level of, of loudness, uh, it's always been around loud. It, it's always been loudness. That's been a really huge factor because I, the reason I'm like building context around this, it's because it's the whole thing I said at the beginning. Or even around the loudness wars of like, even if it sounds really good, it could still be a bad song. Yeah. But this is a case where you can have an amazing song and you have like the loudness needs to be competitive. It needs to be, and so I., um, people will say negative 12 is where you want your loudness meter. And if you're not using a loudness meter when you're mastering, then shame on you because that's . Those, those tools help you know exactly like how loud it is, cuz you have to be completely objective in mastering. There's no like, right, there's no like, oh, I want it, I want it to be like this. It's, no, it's right or wrong. Like it's very almost scientific in a sense when it comes to mastering. So, It's the question, it's negative nine or negative 12 is always the thing, and I would say negative nine because when I've, when I've put, when I've mastered songs for other people and I've compared it to songs on Spotify and I compare it to the one that I have, again, we use reference tracks and mastering. it. It's basically, it's if you can put 'em next to each other and they sound like they could be on the same playlist or they sound like if you were to transition into the song, it would sound, it would sound like it, like fits in with the gang. Right? And I found that negative nine is the sweet spot. So negative nine is the the place to be. And I think, like I had a client actually master music with Abby Rose, mastering engineers., uh, and they did theirs at negative 12, and then he started coming to me because I did mine at negative nine again because it sounded better. They're like, oh, this sounds like this, this definitely sounds better. And it was just because it was three loves above what Yes. Um, the Abbey Rs Mastering Engineers do. And so there is something that like, again, you have to take that into consideration of how we psychologically perceive loud.

Marc Matthews: 40:05

Fantastic stuff. Um, yeah, I'd go with minus nine. I think I am between minus nine and minus 12. And then I'd go for a bit of sort of like depending on the track with regards to LS and metering. Now, this is a big question. I might put you on the spot with this one here cuz you've got integrated, short-term and momentary. Which one do you pay most attention to?

Mitchell Dyer: 40:26

Um, what is, I'm trying to think of like looking at my, my, my meter. Yeah. Um, mo momentarily is is the one that's like, it has a bunch of in, uh, um, a bunch of variation, right? And then integrated is Yeah. The one that's like an average, right?

Marc Matthews: 40:43

That's right. Yeah. Integrated is like across the whole track. The momentary is precise moment, and then short term is, I think it's 400 milliseconds. I could be wrong,

Mitchell Dyer: 40:51

so could be wrong. I think, I think I use, uh, integr.? Uh, uh, well, I do, I do like a two-step thing. Integrated is the primary and then momentary is the secondary. Uh, and it's because sometimes the meter will do like, uh, it's, it's basically like when it does, sometimes you'll see like cuz the a it's basically the average is what you're going for. Yeah. So integrated gives you like, and that's what Spotify looks for. It's not like you forward this momentary, it's like over like the loudest part of your song. Like the average of that, like how high does it get? And if it stays around negative nine, if it does go a little bit above negative nine, it's like negative eight, negative nine. Like, if it just peaks over the negative nine, it should be fine. And, and, and usually you'll see the momentary, like it goes up even like to negative like seven, but it's like a note, you know, it's a vocal part. Yeah. You know, it's, or it's a, or it's a symbol like that. Maybe it's like, Cutting. You know, cutting through just a little, little bit. But if the average is around, like, and, and, and even with that, actually, I try to like even like keep it below that. And so if it's peaking just barely above negative nine with momentary, um, lefts, and then it's like anywhere between like 10 and and and nine, like throughout the loudest part of the song. And then I'm like, okay, I'm good with that just because.. I don't, because the average does change if it goes up to negative six, you know, momentarily. Yeah. Um, but that's, that's what I start with first is like getting that right and then seeing like, okay, it's a negative 10, like I do want to get more out of it. And then seeing the momentary and being like, oh, it's like, it's, it's like moving like up to nine and up to 10. I'm like, okay, that's a, that's, that's a good spot. That's a good spot to like get your loudness.

Marc Matthews: 42:43

Fantastic. I think that's great advice cuz I know a lot of, um, listeners wanna dive into mastering or, or, or learn more about it and just metering in general. I think it's a really good idea to know what meters are representing when you're, even, when you're just mixing as well. And obviously recording is highly important. Mm-hmm., it's highly important across the board, to be fair. Probably do a disservice somewhere. Um, but yeah, knowing what meters and what, what they're referring to, I think is pivotal to success. Um, particularly with mixing as well when it comes to game. because, um, I mean, once again, that's a whole nother episode in itself with regards to the pitfalls and misconceptions and how to properly game, stage a track. Um, but we're, we're coming towards the end of the episode now, Mitchell, which is, which is, this has been fantastic. Cause I said at the beginning here, it's the first time I've ever been able to talk about mastering, uh, on the podcast. So I've really, really enjoyed this. It's been great. And I know the audience is gonna get loads. But where can our audience find you online? So you've mentioned TikTok and you've been mentioned the eliminating songwriter's block, uh, resource that you have. Do you wanna go through those a bit, uh, again and maybe some other bits and pieces that you might

Mitchell Dyer: 43:44

have? Yeah. So right now it's just the, um, on demand songwriter, uh, which is on TikTok. Uh, as a matter of fact,, probably after this airs this Friday, I will actually have. A website up. We're actually, uh, we're actually getting ready to launch a whole course that's around the free resource, which you can get. I would, again, because I don't have a website, if you want to access the four Step Guide in eliminating Songwriter's block, uh, you can go to my TikTok and it's Lincoln Bio. It's like the only thing that's there,, Marc Matthews: uh, steak. I was gonna say, this episode will air after, um, this week, so it's gonna be a few weeks. So I will put that link for your new website in the episode description. Okay. It's audience listening. Yes. The, the link. So it should be, I mean, it should be on demand songwriter.com is the name of the website. and, uh, so yeah, that's where you can, it's, it should also have the resource for the free pdf as, as there as well if everything goes according to playing with my web designer that I'm working with . So, yeah. Um, yeah. And then more, more to come cuz We'll like what? Like after working with a bunch of songwriters and knowing like where people run into, uh, will be actually, um, launching a group, group coaching course that's all around eliminating it. Forever. Like to never like, struggle with it. So yeah.

Marc Matthews: 45:12

Fantastic stuff. Excellent. Um, I'll keep, keep tabs on that and do, keep me updated on how all that progresses and so I'll help push it my end cuz there's a Facebook community group that goes with this podcast and I think those would be excellent resources just to, to check in there as well. In fact, I'll put a link to the, um, The eliminating songwriters block in the, in the, in the podcast community group. Thank you today to get that kick started. Fantastic stuff Rachel. Thank you so much for spending the time with me today and I appreciate you getting up extremely early to do it as well. So, uh, and I know the audience will appreciate it cuz it's been a lot of great information that we've gone through today. So, um, I'll leave you now to, to, to enjoy your breakfast if you haven't had it already. And once again, a big thank thank you for joining me on this. Oh yeah, you're welcome. Cheers buddy. I'll catch up with you. Hey, this is

Mitchell Dyer: 45:55

Matt from Sub Neon, and my favorite episode of Inside The Mix Podcast is episode 56. What makes a mix sound professional? It features Don Morley, who is a Grammy Award-winning mix engineer, and he goes into a great detail as to how to really make your mix Sounders as good as it possibly can. In particular, how he describes. How to use compression properly, which is, I know is a big problem for a lot of producers and how, how to identify where the problems are in a mix at source by layering in instruments one by one to identify the problem, sweeping the eq and a lot of other insights that are really valuable.