Have you ever wondered what the term mastering refers to? Maybe you're seeking answers to topics: mastering music fundamentals, mastering vs mixing, the best AI mastering, or maybe just what is mastering a song. Then check out EP 135 of the Inside The Mix podcast.
Step into the studio with me, as I sit down with Baltimore's own Mat Leffler-Schulman, a mastering maestro with a knack for bringing colours to sound through his unique chromasthesia. In a symphony of advice and anecdotes, we address the myths clinging to the shadows of the mastering world, shedding a bright light on the truths behind that elusive professional polish. DIY producers take note as Matt guides us through the maze of mastering, pointing out the pitfalls to dodge and sharing the secret ingredients for a masterful mix.
The harmony between artist and engineer underscores our next movement, where the feedback loop becomes our guiding melody. Here, we underscore the importance of protecting our most valuable asset: our hearing. We contemplate the shift towards softer live venues, and I share my reflections from a thought-provoking discussion with Elaine Rassnick about the nuances of headphone mastering. It's a conversation that resonates with the care and craftsmanship that goes into nurturing a sound that stays true to the artist's vision.
Our final act explores the burgeoning role of AI in the music production landscape, juxtaposed with the irreplaceable human touch that a seasoned engineer like Matt brings to the table. With a backdrop of neural networks and auditory algorithms, we consider how tools like Ozone's mastering feature can serve as a complement to—not a replacement for—the experienced ear.
For those intrigued by the cerebral symphony of synesthesia or the enigma of sudden skill acquisitions, this episode offers a crescendo of insight. Follow the vibrancy of Matt's journey and learn from his mastery—because in music production, as in life, the human element sings the loudest.
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Thanks for listening & happy producing!
Speaker 1:
This is independent producer Fasted E856. My favorite episode of Inside the Mix podcast so far is how to mix bass frequencies, because as I leveled my mix I realized my bass was the toughest thing to adjust and put in the mix. But after hearing the show I gained confidence and I'm finally happy on how it sounds. Hey, mark, keep pushing out the episodes. I love your podcast.
Speaker 2:
Peace, you're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews.
Speaker 3:
Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. I'm Mark Matthews, your host, musician, producer and mix and mastering engineer. You've come to the right place if you wanna know more about your favorite synth music artists, music engineering and production, songwriting and the music industry. I've been writing, producing, mixing and mastering music for over 15 years and I wanna share what I've learned with you. Hello, folks, and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. As always, if you are a new listener, make sure you hit that follow button on your podcast player of choice, and if you're a returning listener, as always, a big welcome back.
Speaker 3:
Now in this episode it's another interview episode, so two in a row, two in the space of two weeks, and I'm joined by Baltimore based mastering engineer with over two decades of experience, matt Lefler-Schulman. So, apart from discussing Matt's love for crafting egg reams, we talk about some common myths or misconceptions that DIY producers and artists often have about mastering their music and how they can approach the mastering process better. We talk about some of the critical differences or challenges that arise when mastering your own music versus having it mastered professionally, and how can aspiring DIY producers navigate these differences effectively. We talk about some of the common pitfalls or mistakes that producers and artists encounter when attempting to master their music, and we discuss how they can avoid or overcome these challenges to achieve professional quality results. Matt also talks about how he evaluates a project for mastering and what some of the red flags he might look for that might indicate potential issues or challenges in the mastering process. And then we wrap things up by discussing Matt's unique perspective due to his chromasthesia, and how might that synthetic experience influence his approach to mastering. So, without further ado, let's dive into my chat with Matt Lefler-Schulman.
Speaker 3:
Hey, folks, in this episode I'm very excited to welcome my guest today, the Baltimore-based mastering engineer with over two decades of experience, matt Lefler-Schulman. Hello, matt, thanks for joining me today. How are you? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Fantastic stuff.
Speaker 3:
So for the audience listening, we started this conversation probably well over six months ago. We was into the middle of 2023. We put this together, so I've been looking forward to this one. I'm always stoked to have mastering engineers on the podcast, so I've had a. I think we had two or three last year. So we're getting more and more on, which is really, really cool. But I'm just going to quickly read out your bio, sort of summary to the audience here.
Speaker 3:
So Matt has collaborated with renowned artists such as John Baptiste Belondi and Ice Cube love it, mastering records that have topped the Billboard charts and Grammy awards as well. And after founding Mobtown Studios and later transitioning to focus solely on mastering, he brought a purpose-built mastering studio. His expertise supports producers, mixing engineers and artists in achieving their musical vision. Beyond his mastering work, he's partnered with industry leaders like Isotope and has a background working with Warner Bros records and the Kennedy Center and I've got to add this in as well, because I don't usually do this with buyers, but I'm going to stick it in there. And in his free time Matt enjoys crafting egg cream, eggs, egg creams I've got right here it's egg creams.
Speaker 3:
Egg creams. I was going to say cream eggs. I don't know if you get those in the United States, but that'd be quite a feat. Well, it's quite a common thing over here in the UK. And listening to Prince, I love Prince, yes, love.
Speaker 2:
Prince.
Speaker 3:
His Super Bowl performance was out of this world all those years ago. The best Out of this world. What performance? Yeah, I routinely watch it. It is so good.
Speaker 2:
The funny thing about egg creams is there are no eggs and there's no cream.
Speaker 3:
Wow, tell me more. What is the per? I'm new to this egg creams business. What is this?
Speaker 2:
So it originates, you know, in Jewish New York, probably turn of the century, maybe even before, and it is. It's basically like a carbonated chocolate milk, but there's a process of how you put it together and there's a sort of chemistry that's involved with it and it's sort of a simply complicated drink to make. Wow, yeah, so it's basically chocolate syrup, whole milk and seltzer, seltzer water, bubbly water.
Speaker 3:
Oh well, that is entirely new to me. I thought it was cream eggs. As I mentioned just how it cabries cream eggs that we get.
Speaker 2:
So how goes?
Speaker 3:
way up. Well, I'm going to look at that afterwards.
Speaker 1:
I love the fact it's called.
Speaker 3:
It's a beverage I thought it was again like a dessert or something so and it doesn't have eggs, which I find very yeah.
Speaker 2:
I think it comes from a Yiddish word that was sort of anglicized down the line.
Speaker 3:
OK, or German something like that.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:
That kind of makes sense. Anyway, we'll get back on the topic of mastering. So this episode today is focused on mastering. So we're looking at myths, misconceptions and just tips and tricks basically for you, the audience listening, and how you could improve your mastering, because I know the audience listening there's a lot of DIY mastering engineers out there or producers that are doing it themselves, or maybe they're thinking about employing the services of a mastering engineer and what they can expect. So I think it'd be quite cool Maybe if you can talk about some common myths or misconceptions that DIY producers and artists often have about mastering their own music. What are the common myths and misconceptions you come across?
Speaker 2:
Well, I don't know specifically. You know because I'm a mastering engineer. I'm not necessarily a producer, but I think when I was a producer and I was hiring out mastering engineers, I was definitely of the belief that mastering was this witchcraft, it was sorcery, it was black magic where you would add special little fairy dust to the record and that's how it would be mastered. And slowly I learned how the sausage was made and I realized in the end that it's not magic, it's not supernatural, it's a craft, it's artistry and engineering sort of all wrapped into one nice cookie. So, yeah, I think and this is one of the reasons why I love doing these podcasts and I do a little writing on my website about that to sort of dispel the myth that mastering like mixing, like producing it's a job where you learn how to do it and you get better at it and skills are involved, as opposed to mixing a potion together and dropping it on the mix and bam, it's done Excellent stuff I mean in terms of skills involved.
Speaker 3:
Say, if you've got a producer, an artist, that wants to improve their mastering it's like tangent here what would be the number one tip you would give them that they need to hone in on first, what would be the first thing in terms of mastering they should focus on?
Speaker 2:
I mean just listening to music, listening to master music. I think that's one of the aspects of mastering engineers that I've recognized as a whole is that we mastering engineers just love listening to music and sort of deconstructing it and reverse engineering it in a lot of ways, and you don't get better at your trade in a vacuum and you can learn from anybody. So, yeah, I mean it's tricky because I'm a firm believer in producers and mix engineers not mastering their own music or stuff that they've worked on, just because they have no, they almost have too much perspective on the music and they're sort of attached to it emotionally. So for me it's problematic. I mean, people do it and it comes out great, but I feel like there are sacrifices that have to be made and the reason they're mastering their own music probably comes down to time or money, which I get, I totally get. What was your question? I totally got lost there in the words no, no, no, that's OK.
Speaker 3:
It was about if they are mastering their own music. What would be your number one tip for what they should address first in terms of upskilling?
Speaker 2:
Well, I don't know. I mean, anyone can make something louder to a degree. I think one of the most important things would be quality assurance and quality checks and making sure there's no pops and clicks, because I tell you, I'm fixing a lot of those when I'm mastering and one of the great reasons why we have mastering engineers is to check for quality control, because a mix engineer producer they've listened to the track a thousand times and pops and clicks, they just kind of like go by and you don't notice them when you're listening to it every day, over and over and over again, but when a mastering engineer hears that for the first time, it just jumps right out. So I think quality controls it's very important in mastering and I think yeah, I feel like that's one of the most important things that mix engineer should be paying attention to.
Speaker 3:
I agree and I like what you said there about you're kind of losing objectivity as well in a way, aren't you? If you're the producer artist and you eat, sleeping and that particular music and you are going to lose objectivity and the little things are going to get lost in the mix, like you say, with regards to clicks and pops and things like that, and having those second set of ears just to pick those out, I think is highly important. So with regards to that, it's kind of going back to the previous question I had you mentioned there about listening to music, and I often ask this question to mastering engineers Do you find mastering engineers listen to music in a different way compared to, let's say, a mix engineer or a producer?
Speaker 2:
I think so. I think in my past I always would listen to a record and I would often deconstruct it. I never was able to listen to a mix as a whole and I feel like you would listen to and focus in on the snare drum or the bass or the vocal or the strings or the harmonics of the strings. I would always focus in on the details but listening as a mastering engineer, I almost had to retrain how my body and my ears function and pulling away from all of that and being able to listen to a mix as a whole, and that definitely took some time.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I can imagine and it echoes what the conversations I've had with other mastering engineers when they say they're similar thing. It's kind of like a different perspective. I know when I've done it in the past and then I've had somebody ask me what's your feedback on the arrangement and the composition, and I think it actually I probably need to go listen to it again because I wasn't actually listening in that sort of perspective. Going back to what you said just now about objectivity and the not the problems but the challenges, let's say, with regards to mastering your own music, so as a seasoned mastering engineer, could you talk about some of the critical differences or challenges that arrive from someone who is mastering their own music versus going to a professional mastering engineer?
Speaker 2:
Another thing that bounces out to me would be something like the acoustics in their room. They might not be totally tuned in and they could have problems with low ends having too much too little, and oftentimes when I'm working with a mix engineer or producer that has a home studio, I'll notice trends in the mixes that I'm getting and I'll have to sort of either talk with them about treating their room a little bit more cohesively or it just changes that I make consistently.
Speaker 3:
What are the common trends then? Are there any? Yeah, what are the common trends that you might see from these producers?
Speaker 1:
Is that a?
Speaker 3:
particular frequency range or something along those lines.
Speaker 2:
I mean definitely 100 Hertz below and below. It's always sort of a problem. Area 3K often tends to be pretty gnarly in terms of guitars, sort of the low dip of the of the ribbons. I'm doing a lot of de-essing on mixes. I think a lot of people just don't have a lot of hearing 10K and above. They played in so many punk bands or whatever they did to their ears, not wearing earplugs so sometimes those frequencies tend to be a little out of whack.
Speaker 2:
But in general I'm very lucky that I work with so many amazing producers and mix engineers that I generally don't have crazy issues with mixes and the mix engineers and producers I work with are open to suggestions and feedback from me, which I think is a really good thing to have, having that flexibility to sort of tweak your mix and sort of revisit it if it can make the mix better and I'm the same way. If I send a master to a client and they have a suggestion, I'm more than happy to revisit it. It's not like it's done once I send the master off. It's give and take and it's a relationship.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it's a collaborative approach, isn't it? That feedback loop, rather, is highly important to success, and it's not just the music as well, it's just in any creative form. You want that feedback loop. You're not going to be creating things in a vacuum. Exactly, you need to go back and forth and, like you say, there, not only are you given feedback to them, but you're also receptive to feedback as well in terms of actually, from the client's perspective. Could you try doing this XYZ to that particular master?
Speaker 2:
And you have to be, because, at the end of the day, it's not your music, it's the artist's music and it's their vision and they're trusting you to do what you do in terms of mastering. But again, it's their music and you have to sort of trust their guidance.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, 100% what you mentioned there about earplugs as well, in terms of, like you mentioned, punk bands and how they've blown out their ears and they can't be here at particular frequency. And I just want to plug episode 131 of the podcast which, at the point of us talking, hasn't come out yet, but it will have come out by the time this episode comes out and I actually talk about it in that episode. Finally, enough, because I had that experience when I was playing live and the right hand stage monitor just went crazy and went right through my right ear and thereafter I used earplugs. So I glad you mentioned it was a nice little segue to episode 131, which is great.
Speaker 2:
It's very important. I can't talk about it enough. You only have one set of ears. You don't get another one. You can't get any ear transplant. Take care of them if you're in this industry 100%, and I wish I had done it sooner.
Speaker 1:
Luckily, so far as I'm aware.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, touch word. I haven't done any long-term damage to my hearing, but it was. Yeah, I cannot stress that enough to people. Just protect your ears and I also do it when I go to watch live music as well. Absolutely, because I find as well, when I watch a band on stage and I've got earplugs in it just doesn't mix it for me because you've got the live sound engineer doing it, but I just find it much more enjoyable because it's less strain on my ears for an hour, an hour and a half. I just find it much more enjoyable. Do you do the same? Do you wear earplugs when you go to watch bands as well, when you watch them?
Speaker 2:
live, I do, yeah, I do it in a great time where you don't have those foam things. You stick them in your ear and it just kind of muffles, everything Like you have a pillow on it.
Speaker 2:
We've come to the point where you know you can spend a hundred bucks, you can spend more, but even just a hundred dollars you can get really nice ear plugs that are molded to your ear and they just sound really good and there's almost no reason not to use them. One thing I have noticed in terms of trends of live music is I feel like front of house volume has come down a lot. I'm going to shows and it's 90 dB Really, and it's totally amazing to me that you know and I don't know if it's come full circle where you know the health people are, you know talking with these venues about, you know, ear damage and it's just come full circle. I have no idea, but I've noticed that the loudness of these shows have come down in, you know, maybe the past five years.
Speaker 3:
That's really interesting. I'm going to a metal gig in a couple of months, so I'm going to make a mental note to-.
Speaker 2:
Bring a dB meter.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I'm going to. I'm going to be that guy stood right in the middle by the sound desk with my dB meter. I'm doing that and audience listening. I will report back what I find. Let me know, yeah, I will do. I'll message you and let you know what my findings are, because it's, for all intents and purposes, it's a metal show and it's a small venue, so it's going to be, in theory, quite loud.
Speaker 2:
So I'm guessing it's probably going to be loud.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it will be. Yeah, yeah, it will be. It will be, and I probably would have had a few beers by then as well, so I got to remember to put the earplugs in as well. Right, but going right back a bit now to what you said there about wearing headphones, so I had a really, really good conversation with Elaine Rassnick. I think that's how we got in. Yeah, we got in conversation, I think, if I remember rightly, and Elaine is fantastic daughterboard.
Speaker 2:
Amazing, amazing. She's not too far from me. She's in Philly.
Speaker 3:
Oh wow, that's amazing. But Elaine masters with headphones and we had a really, really good chat about it and we went through entry-level headphones that producers and artists should consider. Do you have any tips if artists and producers are really are mastering on headphones? Apart from, you've mentioned low end there in particular, have you got any tips if you're using headphones?
Speaker 2:
I mean I'd like to use headphones when I'm using RX or I'm doing de-clicking and I need to really kind of hone in on the audio and something very specific. So I'd like closed headphones as opposed to what do they call them Circumvential, where they actually events and ports.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, like the open back ones.
Speaker 2:
Exactly open back. I don't use them all day like Elaine does, so maybe she would have a different opinion on open versus closed back, but for me I really just need like crazy isolation so I can really focus in on that detail. But in terms of headphones, I mean, I think it's a there's a lot of people who have a lot of opinions about them and saying that you have to master on speakers and you're just not doing it right, and I just kind of feel like that's bullshit.
Speaker 2:
It's like you can master, you can mix, you can do whatever you need to and whatever sort of platform you need to, as long as you know it really well, and that's why I only have one set of speakers. I know a lot of other engineers. They'll have multiple sets of speakers and they'll test things on different formats and it's like I can only have one set of speakers, and maybe that translates to headphones too, where you only have one set of headphones, but it's like if you have two watches, you never really know what time it is you have one watch, you always have the correct time.
Speaker 2:
So, yeah, I have these, I have the Neumann headphones that I love, and then I also have an open back pair of old AKGs made in Austria a thousand years ago, and I love them. But I usually use those for just enjoyment, just when I want to listen to a record and I really just want to enjoy it and not pick it apart, like with Neumann's.
Speaker 3:
What you said there about knowing it well. I think, if I remember rightly because it was approximately a year ago that I spoke to Elaine she said something very similar, because I think I asked her the question of reference when you send a master to a client and they listen to it, to listen to it on different platforms. I think Elaine said the same thing. In regards to that, I use my headphones. I use one playback medium, so to speak, because I know it well and, having had and sent masters out to those clients and had their positive feedbacks, she knows well whatever I'm doing with these headphones is working. I know them well and I don't need to try that on other systems. And I really like what you said there about having two watches.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's an old adage, yeah, but I stick with it and I tell my clients. Don't go in your car. Don't go to your girlfriend's room and listen to it on her stereo. Don't listen to it on your iPhone. Listen to it where you listen to music all the time, be it your living room or, if it happens to be your car awesome, listen to it in your car. But don't listen to it on 10 different platforms, because you're going to get 10 different outcomes.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it's very interesting. It is great that you're sort of echoing again like what Elaine said, and I think I had this conversation with someone recently and they were telling me how they were listening. They were performing all their mixing in their home studio and then they took it out to their car and they were kind of saying, oh, it doesn't sound right and I guess it's testament to what you said there. But you're used to your environment and you go into another environment. That doesn't necessarily mean that your car's right and what you've been doing all along is wrong, and I think you can go down a quite dangerous rabbit hole there of these different playback platforms.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, where you're chasing your tail.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, 100%. And then you do edits and then maybe that's one of the reasons why I often see like final mix, one final mix, two, final final mix, final final, final, final mix, final mix, final final, and it goes on and on and on and on like that, and that's probably one of the reasons why that happens.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, you just get diminishing returns.
Speaker 3:
Absolutely yeah yeah, yeah, I say that so often, that phrase, the point of diminishing returns in the creative realm is ever present. I find excellent stuff, but I think it'd be quite cool to now like move on to mastering tools and plugins. Sure, and in particular, this is slightly off topic now. I didn't have it in my notes here, but I've got another chat I'm having with a mix engineer later this week and obviously, with the rise of AI, with the buzzword that it is in all platforms now incorporating AI into their various facets, what are your thoughts on AI based plugins in just a music production in general?
Speaker 2:
Well, I'm totally fascinated by it. I feel like we're just at the early stages of it all and I can't wait to see what it's going to be in 10 years. I feel like in 10 years it's going to be exponentially better than where it is now. So yeah, I'm definitely very interested in it. I don't know that I use it all that much. I have Ozone and there's that mastering. I don't even know what it's called, but there's that, the button you press and then it basically masters your song.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
I know what it would mean.
Speaker 2:
So every once in a while, if I have a tricky mix that comes in and I'm unsure of what I've done, I'll pop that plugin on and press the button and see what it does. And it's like for me it's sort of instills a different perspective, a different idea. I mean, at the end of the day it's still like a computer, just kind of crunching numbers and algorithms. So it's not really a replacement for what I do or what we do, but it gives me a different perspective and I think it's interesting and it's only going to get better. So I'm fascinated by that aspect. In terms of, is AI taking our jobs, I just don't really kind of I don't buy it right now. It's like AI is a tool. I have a hammer in my workshop. That doesn't mean I can build a house. I think people are kind of freaking out by it. But who knows? I mean maybe I'm just being naive.
Speaker 3:
Now I'm with you there. I think, in terms of where AI is going to be in five years. It's going to be incredible because I think the progress that has been made over the last probably just the year 18 months and I noticed this a lot in the podcast, in the different platforms that I use to produce the podcast not only in terms of audio and video, but in terms of the transcript and the social media aspect and like AI, is just it does so much of the work for you but at the same time, you do have to proofread it. Essentially, computers are dumb. They only do what we tell them to do at the moment, exactly.
Speaker 2:
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 3:
Until that changes, and then we go down the whole terminated route. But that's a different story in itself. But AI, in terms of, I think, mastering and music production, is really interesting, and what you said there about like you can sling it into Ozone and get a different perspective. It's kind of like having somebody else sat in the room with you and bounce some ideas back and forth, which I think is really good.
Speaker 2:
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it comes up on the podcast a lot and I chat with engineers about it, how they'll just put something on their mixed bus or the master output and then they'll just quickly reference okay, so this is what the master might sound like and it just gives them an idea going forward, which I think is great. But I love AI. I think I'm very much an adopter of these new platforms and trying them out and seeing how they can help. But, much like yourself, I don't fear that they're going to take jobs.
Speaker 2:
I think if you're. I don't think so yeah.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, if you're confident in what you do, I think you'll be okay for the most part. That's my thought process.
Speaker 2:
I mean I see it in a lot like how the assembly line changed building cars and how computers changed business and accounting and that sort of thing where, yes, it probably will take some jobs, but those people have to pivot and change and learn new things and someone's going to have to run these computers, so jobs will be taken away, but I think jobs will also be created in this sort of transition that we're in.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I agree, and I think as well, you have to pivot and by creating jobs, it's going to open up more opportunities Because, in theory, with the production line analogy, you use you use the production line to do those remedial tasks. I say remedial, they're not remedial, but those tasks that we don't necessarily want to do, those repetitive tasks, and they can do it a lot quicker, which then opens us up to be able to do other, more creative things. And I think, if we think of it the same way within music, I think that's a very exciting opportunity. And there's one thing I noticed recently.
Speaker 3:
This is going on a total tangent now and I was listening to another podcast and they were talking about the use of online platforms to upload your music to. You can select a singer because they've licensed their voice. You can provide them with a recording of what you think the song, the vocal, should be, and then you can use AI to then use this computer generated voice to get an idea of what the song could sound like. That's a very convoluted way of describing it, but I thought that was amazing. So basically, you can think I've got this track and I want it. I want the singer to sound like Lady Gaga. You upload it to this platform and you get a singer that's not Lady Gaga but similar to it, and you can audition it, and I think things like that, using AI, are amazing. I think that's a great thing to do, so totally cool and awesome.
Speaker 2:
Something I do want to step back with and recognize is the intellectual property that's being used. That at this point I feel like hasn't been, it hasn't been legalized. I guess I don't know if that's the right word.
Speaker 2:
But it's like there are companies out there that are just kind of slurping up all of this data and exporting it into their own thing and it's tricky. I know there was a case recently with Andy Warhol about something that he I can't remember if it was the Campbell Soup thing. It was something that he did where he got sued by what was in the image and it just like it wasn't changed enough and he lost the lawsuit. So it's like how much of like slurping up all of Lady Gaga's songs and using that for their algorithms. Like someone needs to be sort of compensated for it. There has to be some sort of acceptance into being able to use that data and we're not there yet, obviously because these things exist right now and there's no paywall, etc.
Speaker 2:
But I think that's the stuff that's going to happen in the next five years.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, the legal ramifications of it are very interesting and I think these positions might already exist in terms. You'll have just specific lawyers, solicitors, dedicated to artificial intelligence, and that is their specialty is dealing with that. Go back to the platform I mentioned. It is a platform whereby the singers license their voice, so it's going to be I guess it's a platform for sort of top liners who want to make a bit of extra income from that. That's great, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I suppose they're going to be singers who sing like Lady Gaga, but I totally get what you're saying. There is tricky, isn't it Like?
Speaker 3:
I remember having a conversation again with another guest and it was about record labels, and could it then turn out that record labels own the copyright of the voice rather than the individual? I guess it's a total rabbit hole that you could go down, isn't it? It's crazy.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on what contract you sign. I do remember there was that one case where the public so you know the band CCR, Credence, Kierowater, Revival, they're like a band in the 60s.
Speaker 2:
The singer came out with a solo record and released it on a different publishing company. But the song that he released as a solo artist sounded just like the song that from when he was in the band. So that publishing company sued him for having a song that sounded too much like the other song. So it's like it's pretty tricky and I think right now we are in the wild, wild west that this stuff hasn't been sort of policed yet and I think I feel like once that starts happening and it's people are sort of put in these parameters, I think that's when the creativity is really going to happen and that's what I'm excited for.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I'm totally with you there. Yeah, it's very. I once again, I'm a huge advocate of technology and AI moving in that direction, so we could have a whole episode dedicated to it. But I think, while doing this, I'm going to bring it back now to actually actual mastering Because, as I said before, we're on recording. I often go off on tangents, so no worries, I think this is. This is sort of like moving on now to to you as a mastering engineer. Sure, so what criteria do you typically consider when evaluating a project for mastering, and are there any red flags that you look out for when a client might approach you with a mix or produce some of the mix or mix? Engineer.
Speaker 2:
The. The only gigantic red flag I get every once in a while is when a mix engineer or an artist comes to me and says, hey, I need this mix to be, or this master to be, you know negative eight lofts integrated, or you know negative 12 lofts. And usually when someone does that, I'll I'll turn the project down, just because they're sort of asking the wrong questions. And you know Every song should sort of be evaluated on its own and especially if you're dealing with a record or An assembly of different songs, you know you just kind of can't say this song has to be negative 12 and then you know another song should be x, y and z, like it just kind of doesn't work that way.
Speaker 2:
That's a big red flag for me. Obviously too much bass, too little bass. But then that comes back down to. You know how the room is treated. Yeah, red flags, that's a really good question. I, like I said before, I'm really lucky in that I work with really great People that I don't really have too many red flags, other than you know, when people want, it's like so those people who come to me and said, hey, I want this at negative 12, I'm like those people should go to lander like that's what they want.
Speaker 2:
They're focused on, just like the loudness, like they don't need a mastering engineer. They just need someone to do what they want them to do. They're not concerned with you know quality control or assembling the correct Platforms for you know formats for you know where the record is going to go after. Yeah, I don't know if that's too cutthroat, but that's kind of where I stand.
Speaker 3:
I think that's really good because, like I said at the right at the beginning, if we've got the audience listening and they're thinking about Approaching a mastering engineer to do the work for them, they kind of want to approach them in the right way. You know, if you, if you've got your heart set, your desire, you've, you've identified the, the mastering engineer or house that you want to work with, you want to approach them in the right way. And I think what you've said there about if you, if you just straight up tell them you know I want this to be minus 12 Luffs, without any other context I think I think this is a very valid red flag.
Speaker 2:
And what they're. What they're telling me is they don't want me to listen to the music. They just want me to look at a meter and it's like lander Doesn't listen to music. It just sort of like crunches numbers and you know.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
I'm a human who listens to music and you know needs to respond to it that way.
Speaker 3:
Mmm, what about gear? Do you if somebody, if somebody approaches you and says can you tell me what your mastering chain looks like? Does does that scream a red flag to you?
Speaker 2:
No, I think. I mean, I guess it depends, but no, I think people are curious, especially if they're engineers themselves. So, yeah, I have no problem telling people what I did. I use software called session recall. Are you familiar with session recall? It rings a bell. It does ring a bell, so it's. It's basically, like you know, I have a lot of analog gear in front of me and, you know, instead of having to, like, write down notes on a notepad like I used to do, there's software that you can pull up in your computer and it has Every piece of gear that you're using in your chain at any given time and you can, you know, change the, the switches and the knobs To what you're doing for that specific song. Yeah, so I, you know, take screenshots of that, send it to the client and you know they love it.
Speaker 3:
What about? I think? I think my initial question was if they approach you before you do the mastery, because I mean giving if they were to approach you and say can like, I want you to master my track, but can you tell me what gear you have? This?
Speaker 2:
is something that happens. Yeah, I mean no, I don't think that's ever happened. I mean, I have a list of all my gear on my website. So no, I don't think. I mean yes, I feel like there is that kind of client that like that gear sluts kind of guy. Yeah, yeah, I. It's been a long time since I've had I, since I had a client that asked that I feel like when I had a recording studio, I'd get more of those questions like where's your knee? For you know, where's your?
Speaker 2:
u87 like Mm-hmm. Again, you're just asking the wrong questions, like I don't know. Yeah, I mean I do get people who say specifically hey, I want you to run my mix through you know your tape machine and I'm fine with that. You know, if they have some specific vision or sound that they want and they feel like a piece of gear is gonna help them get that, I have no problem. You know, at least trying it. But yeah, I mean, it's tricky. It's like at the end of the day, you just want to. You want to keep all your clients happy.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, well, 100%, that's the end goal, isn't it? But I realized the time, so I've got. I've got one more question for you. This is a really interesting one, because I've never actually spoken to an individual and had a conversation about this. So, as someone with a unique perspective due to hopefully I pronounce it correctly Chrome, chrome it's Chromathesia Is that correct. Yeah, yeah, can you maybe tell it? Talk to a, tell our audience a what, what it is, and be how. That sort of Influences your approach to mastering and just music production in general.
Speaker 2:
Sure so. So it's, it's kind of strange and I Guess a way to explain it in simplest terms is almost like someone who's Using LSD. I know it's. I mean just in simple terms. So, when I hear audio music sound In my brain and sort of what I'm seeing in front of me elicits and manifests colors and shapes, sometimes motion, so it's interesting and, and it's something that I I've not yet been able to turn off, so it's always happening, even now when we're talking.
Speaker 2:
So for someone, someone with ADHD, it's definitely, you know, something I'm always thinking about, and I don't want to say struggling with, because I feel like for me it's something that is, it's helpful in a lot of ways, where you know I'll get a mix and in my head, um, seeing where the shapes need to go to get it to sound like how I want it to be, um, so it's almost like that reverse engineering thing that we were talking about before. Um, yeah, I mean it is. It is a little distracting at times, especially when I'm not doing music, like if I'm in the car, you know, and I'm listening to public radio and you know I'm, I'm trying to, you know, hear about what stupid thing you know Trump has done and you know I'm I'm hearing the interviewer speak and it's just it's distracting me from what, like, I really want to be paying attention to. Um, so you know there's that. But in terms of music, when um doing my job as a mastering engineer, it's really for me a very helpful thing and it's almost like a, you know, a checkbox that says, oh yeah, this is, this is where it's supposed to be. Um, yeah, and I know people have different, um, uh, perceptions of it and I and I feel like I don't know, I feel like everybody has this they just aren't tapped into it and I don't know how this happened.
Speaker 2:
For me it's something that I remember having at such an early age. I mean I remember being 10 years old. You know listening to um, you know Joni Mitchell and the Stones and the Beatles and all that stuff my dad would listen to and we I would listen on vinyl and you know you would hear all those like little crackly, pebbly sounds of the, the surface noise of the record, and in my head it like those would be pictures for me. Um, so, yeah, I mean I guess maybe you know I was born to be a mastering engineer and you know doing quality control every day? Um, yeah, so I don't, I don't know, I, I everyone always sort of says how unique it is, and maybe it is, maybe I just don't see it that way. But I feel, like everybody, I don't know if it's a learn, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, um, I just don't know. It's something that's for me very normal and very you know every day, but to other people I guess it is kind of a freak show.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I think it's very interesting and I think it's kind of like having another like tool in your tool box, so to speak um, in terms of your creative output, and it's very interesting and it's something that I'm going to look into more, because it's interesting that it came up in the conversation and in my notes leading up to this podcast, because there was a comment on my YouTube channel where I got my turn of phrase wrong.
Speaker 3:
I think I said that this is the best song that I've seen, or something like that, and so I said, uh, something about synesthesia, which is where you can uh, see sounds, and I kind of thought, actually it's quite interesting. And then I was doing the research for this, this chat today, and then you mentioned Kermans these years. So it, both avenues are something that I'm going to going to look at because I think they're incredibly, incredibly interesting and it's not something I've ever looked at or or investigated myself. So it's it's a really, really interesting area to to, to well, yeah, to to research and get involved with I think it'd be and just see if I could do it myself and see if there's any.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if there's like training classes or you know, yeah, but there are. There's a author named Oliver Sacks and he's written some books on a lot of um phenomenon like that I'm. He has a book called um, oh boy, and now I can't even remember what it is, but it's like you know people who are struck by lightning and then can, like play the violin like a virtuoso. Or you know people who drowned and then, like all of a sudden, know how to speak a different language, like yes, I was going to say that.
Speaker 2:
All these like you know what we would call like weird phenomenon, um which I guess some people would consider a chromasthesia or, you know, synesthesia, being, you know, a weird phenomenon.
Speaker 3:
Mm the, the, the um, the foreign language one's quite interesting, because I recall that I think there was a woman, or it could have been a man. I think it was a woman and she woke up from a car accident or something and she could speak fluent French and had a French accent, which is, which is incredible. It's like how, how did? Yeah, and it correct once again.
Speaker 2:
I've probably an entire podcast episode in its own right, I know our brains are fascinating and I think like we've just, we just don't know, oh a hundred percent yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 3:
I'm totally with the uh, but it's been fantastic to chat to you about AI, about these, these different experiences and mastering as well, and so big thank you for spending this time with me today, and I'm sure I've got a lot out of it in the audience as well. So where can our audience find out more about you online? Where should we signpost them to?
Speaker 2:
The best place is matleflerschulmancom, or on Instagram at mobtownstudios Brilliant.
Speaker 3:
I will put both links in the episode description so audience do go and uh obviously first follow uh Matt on Instagram and then also go and check out his website as well and um reach out to him if you need assistance with any mastering. So once again, matt, it's been fantastic today. Big thank you and I'll catch up with you soon. Likewise, thanks for having me.