#129: Pre-Fader vs Post-Fader: What's the Difference? Unlocking the Mystery with 3 Music Mixing Tips

Ever been frustrated with when to use a pre-fader send? Maybe you're seeking answers to the questions: what are post sends used for, whether reverb should be pre or post-fader,  or even just post-fader vs pre-fader and what's the difference? Then check out EP 129 of the Inside The Mix podcast.

Have you ever had one of those moments that just grips you—an unexpected cover song that just blows you away? That happened to me with Alison Chains and Gretchen Wilson's rendition of "Barracuda," and it led me down this fascinating rabbit hole of musical exploration. On a personal note, I'm buzzing with excitement to share tales from my recent 90-day Producer Bootcamp, a whirlwind of growth and creativity culminating in my EP release last December. Plus, I've got a little surprise for our loyal listeners: we're sprucing up our podcast artwork to reflect the essence of our audio adventures!

Now, let's get to the nitty-gritty of music production that's had many of you scratching your heads—the enigmatic world of pre-fader and post-fader sends in mixing. Stripping down the complex to the comprehensible, I'm serving up some practical wisdom with three illustrative examples that'll shine a light on the optimal use of these powerful tools. You'll get the scoop on how pre-fader sends are your allies in dynamic processing and why post-fader sends are the secret sauce for those lush time-based effects. So, come along for an episode that's as much a masterclass as it is a conversation—because when you chime in with your questions, we all learn something new.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews.

Speaker 2: 0:06

Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. I'm Mark Matthews, your host, musician, producer and mix and mastering engineer. You've come to the right place if you want to know more about your favorite synth music artists, music engineering and production, songwriting and the music industry. I've been writing, producing, mixing and mastering music for over 15 years and I want to share what I've learned with you. Hello, folks, and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. If you are a new listener, make sure you hit that subscribe button or follow button on your podcast Player of Choice and if you're watching this on YouTube, make sure you hit subscribe and that notification bell so you get notified anytime there is a new episode of the podcast or I release new music.

Speaker 2: 0:47

So I don't know if you've ever had this, but I had YouTube playing in the background and out of nowhere, this cover of Hearts Baracuda by Alison Chains and Gretchen Wilson from about 15 years ago just appeared and started playing and I was amazed the vocal performance of Gretchen Wilson. Now I'll hold my hands in the air and say never heard of Gretchen Wilson before, but obviously I'm a huge. I say obviously, like you know, but I am a huge Alison Chains fan, like man in the Box is one of my all-time favorite songs, but it started playing and the vocal was just insane. It was so good, one of the best covers I've seen in such a long time. So I tip my hat to Gretchen Wilson 15 years ago and Alison Chains for that performance. Go check it out. If you're watching this on YouTube, I'll link it. I'll put a link above in this video so you go check it out. But absolutely blown away by the performance because that is one hell of a vocal to cover.

Speaker 2: 1:39

So I've been beavering away as I do, creating various bits and pieces and completing projects for the podcast and synth music mastering. Admittedly, I haven't done any music production in January, but I'm hoping to kick start that in Feb. Anyway, at this point I have just finished the 90-day producer boot camp, so I'm recording this toward the end of January and if you go to synthmusicmasteringcom forward slash coaching, you'll be able to find out more about it. And also, whilst you're there, grab my producer growth scorecard, the 28-day challenge free to improve your music production and mixing as well. I did it and the result was my EP that I released last December and also another thing at the time of this going live. I don't think I would have released it yet, but I am in the process of redesigning the artwork for the podcast Now.

Speaker 2: 2:31

I mentioned it a few podcast episodes ago and it's purely because, as much as I like the logo for the podcast, it doesn't really explain to someone what the podcast is about. It could be about cooking, it could be about mixing cement, right. So the idea is just to make it more I hate using the phrase, but SEO friendly. So anybody stumbling across the artwork will immediately know about what the podcast is about. So if the podcast artwork changes, don't panic. Still the exact same podcast, but at some point it will change to be a bit more SEO. If you're watching this on YouTube, you can see I'm doing it. Air quotes, friendly folks.

Speaker 2: 3:07

So this episode is continuing what is proving to be quite a popular format for the podcast, and that is the listener slash, viewer question. So if you're not familiar with this as your first time listening, your question will be answered on the podcast and then forms the podcast episode, right. So I want you to be involved in the creation of the podcast episodes, the creative process plus you can give yourself a little shout out, and the way to do this is to submit an audio message via speak pipe, and there is a link in the episode description for that. All you need is your mobile phone. You don't need any fancy setup with microphones etc. You don't even need to have an account with speak pipe. You literally just record it 30 seconds and record your question. Alternatively, if you don't want to record or have your audio, your voice, on the podcast, you can submit a message via Instagram at inside the mix podcast, or you can email me inside the mix podcast at gmailcom. Or, as in this episode, you can leave a comment on a YouTube video and I will do the same, but, as always, remember to include a link to where the audience can find you online, because I want to give you a shout out. So this episode's question was submitted via a comment on one of my YouTube videos, and the YouTube video is logic pro. Quick tip what's the difference between pre and post fader and I'll now on YouTube? If you're watching this on YouTube, I'll put a little link above so you can go and watch that particular video. And the question is and if you're watching this on YouTube again, I'll have it flash up on screen, but I'll read it out for those listening.

Speaker 2: 4:39

So what would be a good time to switch between the two pre fader, post fader? I'm not certain what's better. So in this episode I'm going to demonstrate three practical applications of using pre-fader and post-fader sends. So let's give it a go. So if you're unsure of the difference between pre-fader and post-fader sends, go check out episode 125 of the podcast. Alternatively, check out my YouTube video, logic Pro Quick Tip what's the difference between pre and post-fader for some examples?

Speaker 2: 5:08

So this is an example of using a pre-fader send. I've got my drum kit here and then I've got an auxiliary send set up with a compressor on it. It's also got a decapitator, it's got a clipper and it's got the TDR Nova EQ. But I'm interested mostly here in how my pre-fader send level is affecting the compressor and the decapitator. So the pre-fader send I've got set up is going to this drum parallel compression channel and I'll open the compressors, the FET compressor and the decapitator and I've got it set how I want it to be in terms of that send level going into each one of these plugins. And if I play it you'll see the amount of gain reduction I've got going on and you'll see the amount of air quote attitude going into the decapitator. ["dance of the Rage"].

Speaker 2: 6:01

Okay, so for the audience listening, that was just under 8 dB of gain reduction on the compressor and I think the attitude was just under zero on the VU meter there. So what I'm going to do now is I'm going to reduce the fader on the drum kit and because it's in pre-fader, it's going to have no effect on the send level going to my parallel compression auxiliary channel. Thus it's not going to affect the gain reduction on the compressor and the attitude in my decapitator. So I'm going to do that, I'm going to reduce the level of the drum kit and once I get to write down to zero well, once I've reduced the level all the way down, rather of the fader, you'll only hear the parallel compression auxiliary send. So it's good to go.

Speaker 2: 6:49

["dance of the Rage"]. I'm dragging the fader down and, just to describe those not watching it, it's not affecting the gain reduction on the compressor and it's not affecting the attitude on the decapitator. So that's where I would use a pre-fader send. I've got everything set how I want with regards to gain reduction, with regards to the attitude on the decapitator, and I don't want any fader movements of my drum kit to affect that send level. So that's where I personally use pre-fader sends. So this is another little trick you can use with pre-fader sends If you've got a vocal that you really want to push back, an absolutely swamping reverb and get like a really pronounced reverb effect, really push it back so it's really distant.

Speaker 2: 7:37

I say really a lot there. You can do this. I've got this whole reverb and I've got it in pre-fader send. I've got my vocal at zero on my channel strip here and I've got my whole reverb also at zero as well. I'm using the Valhalla reverb. I love that reverb. I think it's so good. I've got a nice smooth plate reverb going on here and what I'm going to do is I'm going to reduce the fader of the vocal on this track and it will gradually just push it right back to the point whereby you've just got the reverb. So let's give it a go.

Speaker 3: 8:08

Feel my heart. Why is it so deline? I'm dragging it down. Feel my heart. Why is it so deline? Feel my heart. Why is it so deline?

Speaker 2: 8:23

Now at the end there it was left with literally just the whole reverb. So I mean there's more than one way to do that, but this is just one way. So if you wanted to have that sudden effect in a song where you push the vocal right back, you could automate the channel volume just down so you can push the vocal back and then that reverb is then just swamping it, and that's using a pre-fader send. So this third example is now going to be using a post-fader send and this is what I would usually do with a vocal or any instrument where I've got time-based processing and I'm bussing channels out to it or tracks out to this auxiliary channel with this time-based effect. In this instance it's the same vocal with the same hold reverb, but I've got it set in post-fader and the way I've got it set it's about minus 11, minus 12 in terms of send level going out to this whole reverb, but it's set. So it's just complimenting the vocal In the entire mix. It's just sat underneath and what I don't want to happen is, because I automate volume of vocal for our track, I'll automate the volume of the, or rather the send going to the reverb as well. Throughout the song.

Speaker 2: 9:33

I use automation a lot. We're controlling performances throughout a piece. I'll be amazed if there's a song that has no automation, but correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, so what I don't want to happen is like I showed you in example. Two is that when I automate the volume down, that reverb then just swamps it. I want the reverb to kind of like the level I've got and how it's set, to sort of not stick to. But it's yeah, the way it is. It's married to, it's sticking, it's relative, let's say it's relative to the vocal track, the vocal volume. So you'll see what I mean. So I'm going to play it and I'm going to bring down the vocal track fader all the way to zero, and you'll hear the reverb as well will then diminish too. So let's give it a go.

Speaker 3: 10:18

Feel my heart by your side. Our souls align. Feel my heart by your side. Our souls align. Feel my heart by your side.

Speaker 2: 10:31

There we go. You can see it's a much more balanced mix in terms of vocal and reverb compared to what it was before. So give it a go. Folks Switch between the two, see which one works for you. And, like I said with example two, if you want that really pronounced effect to push an instrument back in the mix, maybe a pre-fader send is the way to go. So there we go. Three practical examples of using pre and post-fader sends. So just to summarize, personally. Now, everybody's different, right, but personally I use pre-fader if I've got something like compression, some sort of dynamics going on, some sort of dynamic processing, right. And then I'll use a post-fader send for things like time-based effects or any other effects that I'm going to be applying to a track or some audio. To discover another practical example of using a pre-fader send, check out episode 125 of the podcast. What is Parallel Compression in Logic Pro? Three compression settings for vocals where I go through pre and post-fader sends again.

Speaker 2: 11:31

And if you have a burning music production or mixing question, submit an audio message via speak pipe using the link in the episode description. Remember, all you need is your mobile phone. You don't need anything else. You don't even need a speak pipe. Put my teeth back in account. Alternatively, if audio isn't your thing, just send me an email at insidethemixpodcastcom or reach out to me on Instagram at insidethemixpodcast. Alternatively, like in this episode, you can leave a comment on YouTube and I'll include that as well, and remember to leave a link to where our audience can find you online. And if you're watching this on YouTube, click on the video that has miraculously appeared and watch my video tutorial on what's the difference between pre and post-fader sends.

Speaker 1: 12:16

Hi, this is Chris from Double Triangle. I'd say my favorite episode of Inside the Mix would be 111. It went over that you don't need to have a clear idea what you're gonna do with an email list and you can start it straight away, which was something I was wondering about, so that was really helpful. Generally, there's discussions about music education that I found really interesting.