#121: How to Make Your Mix Sound Professional: Behind the Soundboard with Dom Morley

Have you ever scratched your head trying to figure out how to make your mix sound good everywhere? Maybe you struggle with topics such as how to fix tonal balance in a mix, tonal balance control, or literally how to mix music. Then check out EP 121 of the Inside The Mix podcast.

I'm thrilled to have a Grammy winner join me on the pod today! The incomparable Dom Morley, the mastermind behind the mixing console for legendary artists like Adele, Amy Winehouse, and Sting, is here to spill the beans on the art of music production. Strap in as we embark on an electrifying journey, tracing Dom's illustrious career and his time at Leeds Conservatoire.

Ever wondered what goes into a professional mix? Dom enlightens us with his wisdom, sharing the secrets behind gaining experience at a recording studio, the magic formula for a professional mix and the delicate art of balancing mixed frequencies. We dig deeper into the intricacies of EQ, automation, and compression in mixing. Dom also talks about his stint with the iconic Amy Winehouse 'Back to Black' album and the significance of choosing top-notch recording and mixing equipment.

Just when you think we've covered everything, we dive into the nitty-gritty of Dom's mix consultancy services, the importance of pre-production, and tips for recording stellar vocals. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a greenhorn in the music industry, Dom's wealth of knowledge is bound to upgrade your arsenal. So, don't wait any longer, tune in to our fascinating chat with Dom Morley. It's an episode you wouldn't want to miss!

Click here to learn more about Dom: https://www.dommorley.com/

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

You're listening to the Inside the Mix podcast with your host, Mark Matthews.

Speaker 2: 0:06

Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast. I'm Mark Matthews, your host, musician, producer and mix and mastering engineer. You've come to the right place if you want to know more about your favourite synth music artists, music engineering and production, songwriting and the music industry. I've been writing, producing, mixing and mastering music for over 15 years and I want to share what I've learnt with you. Hello, folks, and welcome back to the Inside the Mix podcast. If you are a returning listener, a big welcome back, as always. And if you are new to the podcast, make sure you hit that follow button on your podcast player of choice and also, if you're watching this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and also the notification bell so you know when we go live and a new episode drops.

Speaker 2: 0:48

So in this episode, we are again venturing into the archives of the Inside the Mix podcast and this is the most downloaded, the most popular episode of 2022 and it's my chat with Don Morley, episode 56, and it was a fantastic and insightful chat I had with him. So Don, if you're unfamiliar, has got over 25 years of experience in the audio industry, multiple golden platinum records and he has one Grammy as well, and as well as his studio work. He's also the founder of the Mix Consultancy and also a professor of music at Leeds Conservatoire and also a keen coffee drinker, so we connected on that level as well. So in this incredibly insightful episode we chat about how to get experience at a recording studio Tony Iommi's engineer and producer, mike Exeter, who did also feature on the podcast as well. What makes a mix sound professional? How do you balance mixed frequencies? In what order should you mix your music, how to tell if your mix is ready for mastering, why you shouldn't master your own music, and how to create retro sounds in a modern mix. And there is a lot more in there as well, folks. So I'm going to stop withering on now and let's dive into episode 56, what makes a mix sound professional with Don Morley.

Speaker 2: 2:05

Hey, folks, and welcome back to the Inside the Mix podcast and in this episode I'm very excited to welcome our guest. Today We've got a Grammy award-winning multi-planet producer and mix engineer of Don Morley. Now Don is the founder of the Mix Consultancy, which we'll touch on a bit later in the podcast, and he's also a tutor at the Music Production of Music Production, rather at Leeds College of Music. Now Don has worked with artists such as Adele, amy Winehouse, jeff Beck, mark Ronson, underworld and Sting, to name but a few. Sting really starts me because I've been on a bit of a Sting binge lately. So fantastic stuff, don. Thanks for joining me today. And how are you?

Speaker 1: 2:45

Very good thanks. Yeah, it's Friday evening, so all is good as we're recording this. Sorry, have I ruined or broken something by saying it's Friday? This is not live.

Speaker 2: 2:53

sorry, no, no, no, not at all, not at all, to be fair. It probably will be quite good for me sometimes to give the audience a bit of an indication of when these things happen. But no, no, no, it is Friday evening, so we are in the UK. So I know I do have a, rather the podcast does have a quite an international audience, but it is Friday evening in the UK and I don't know about where you are, but it is the classic UK weather of wet and windy down where I am, in the south west, yeah, but there you go. That's what we've come to expect living in the UK. So, don, I thought what would be great is just to start, because we're going to move on to actual mix engineering a bit further down the line. It's just a bit of your story. How did you get to the stage, where or status where you are now, of being a mixing mix engineer? Where did it all begin?

Speaker 1: 3:37

It began probably like most people, like I was in a band as a teenager and then wanted to record my band so bought a few bits of you know recording gear. And this is back in the mid 90s, early 90s. So the cutting edge studio gear for a home studio was a like Porter studio and other cassette things which bizarrely seem to be making a comeback. I have no idea why. I mean I mean weird anyway. So it was before computer audio. So I had one of those and then bought an 8 track, bought a few mics and just got you know stuff like that and really enjoyed that bit. I didn't really like being a band because of my mates didn't like performing, that didn't interest me, but I really liked recording and getting things to sound good. So that sort of led eventually to me looking for a job in the studio and I went all around London with the killer line I'll work for nothing and make good tib, figuring I could probably sign on or something, I'd find a way. Got nowhere. Three days of knocking on doors of studios got nowhere. So they went to Birmingham, tried the same line and somebody said yeah, alright, see you Monday. So I started work experience at a place and did manage to sign on. So I got a little bit of whatever it was called job sequence allowance or something back in those days. That got me through enough weeks to make a few contacts and somebody who was the chief engineer of the studio also in Birmingham that was owned by the band UB40, was looking for a brand new assistant. So I got that gig based on recommendation from the people that I've been kind of helping out for free at the place where I was doing work experience. So then I was there for a couple of years and it was good place. It was a yeah actually I'm still friends with people that I work with there really good little studio. It was two rooms, kind of a good out of London studio, because at the time, particularly the 90s, it was incredibly London centric. And and then after I think it's two and a half years there, I moved down to London and I did a bit of freelance assisting around and then managed to get a job at Metropolis, which is a big studio in Chiswick the biggest independent Europe at the time and probably still is actually to be fair and five studios, all sorts of different desks, also different bits of gear, mastering rooms, just everything. So that was that was a real. That was the one I wanted that gig and it was actually because it might be an interesting sort of angle for your listens.

Speaker 1: 6:05

But the reason why I wanted Metropolis is because I'd worked at this studio we had in Birmingham. We had an SSL desk upstairs and something called an amic angela downstairs. Now what would happen occasionally is you get an engineer who had been booked into the wrong room and he was on the amic angela and he was expecting an SSL and he basically couldn't work. And it happened a couple of times where it was like if I haven't got an SSL, I can't do anything, and I didn't want to be tied to any one bit of gear ever unless I could afford to buy it and then I could take it with me. But so Metropolis at the time had three different SSLs an E-Series, g-series and J-Series, a focus right desk which is very rare and a Neve VR.

Speaker 1: 6:47

So at that point I thought if I trained there I'd just now to use desks and then I could walk into any studio and be perfectly happy with whatever's in front of me, because I just now to use gear, you know, rather than being tied to any specific bit of equipment. So that's kind of a principle I've always held, really ever since, that I've always got a reason around the gear myself anyway, and that's great. But I can sort of go anywhere. I might take a couple of bits with me, but that'd be it. You know, be happy wherever I work. So yeah, that was that idea. And then so I was there for a bit working up from the very bottom you know, newest assistant gets all the 24 hour sessions, all that sort of stuff. After about seven years there I was in house engineer, went freelance. I was getting enough sort of work to go freelance. And then, yeah, I've been. I've been freelance for 12 years something like that and had a little studio in Metropolis.

Speaker 1: 7:43

For a while I shared it with a friend of mine called Chris Potter. The two of us just rented a room at Metropolis. But then I moved out of London to where I am now about seven years ago, got this studio in Oxford well, this building in Oxfordshire which I turned into a studio and so, yeah, I've been here ever since. That's the potted history of quarter of a century of me working again Fantastic yeah, it's like.

Speaker 2: 8:06

It's kind of like that classic story of like the I don't want to say the T-Runner, but I guess it is in a way. You sort of like you start at the bottom there and I love the idea of the variety being the key to success and I think that's a great. I think it's a great man set mentality to have in probably most creative aspects is having a bit of variety so you'd be able to take yourself into other studios and other situations yeah, do you think?

Speaker 2: 8:30

Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah. Do you think the because the way you sort of entered the industry does that sort of avenue still exist? Is it still possible to do that if you wanted to get experience in a studio?

Speaker 1: 8:44

It does, but the opportunities are far fewer than they were in the 90s. It's kind of flipped because back then there were hardly any courses that you could do on on and you know you couldn't really there were. As far as I knew, there was SAE, alchemy, tonmeister and I think one other were all the ones that I knew that did like music production or sound engineering and and so it's hard to get on those courses because you know that's because there were so few.

Speaker 1: 9:12

So so you'd get a job in a studio and I actually sort of my plan was initially if I didn't have a job after four months I'd probably run out of all my money and they sort of started to get a bit edgy about you signing on for too long. So then I'd try and go start a course and try and start full-time education. So that was that was the sort of way it was around there. You try and get a job in a studio. If you couldn't, you maybe go into education and then you'd meet some people that way and then start working. So so this now it's sort of flipped in that you do a lot of courses and a lot of good courses. And oh, I'm actually at Leeds Conservatoire by the way, it's not Leeds College of Music used to be called Leeds College of Music, but it's not Leeds College of Music so I'll let you off.

Speaker 1: 9:54

It's changed Leeds Conservatoire, so so now there's loads of those and there's not many studios. So actually, I think the route these days is more to to study and and this is the crucial bit is to meet people there and start working, because that's really what you want to do, wherever you are, whether you're working in a studio or you're working in in or you're at college. The point is you you learn on the job or in the, on the course, and you meet people and you start working and that's how you get a career and and so that's. You know, that's what I did, fortunately. The difference the difference being, fortunately, if you get a job in a studio, you're paid to do that, whereas if you're obviously doing a course, you have to pay to do that, but but the principle is the same is that you are there to learn how to do it and to network in order to meet people and start working. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2: 10:49

Attention Synthpop producers. Do you feel like your amazing tracks are whispering in the vast musical ocean? Are you trapped in the music production purgatory? Your songs are hidden gems and it's time the world discovered your talent. Join me at the Inside the Mix podcast. Let's turn your passion into profit, plug the holes in your production and breathe life into your music. Click the link in the episode description or visit synthmusicmasteringcom forward slash podcast to book a free producer potential discovery call. Break free from music production purgatory and let's blaze trails together. Folks. Yeah, so with the courses that the Leeds Conservatoire which I my due diligence there let me down in the run up to the podcast, interview With that there and with your students, are you actively telling them sort of from day dot, like you're here to study but also at the same time you should be out there networking and you should be out there meeting artists and recording performing whichever avenue they want to go down from day dot.

Speaker 1: 11:58

Yeah, yeah, so I teach the, I teach the masters, I'm a tutor for the masters in music production. So it's only a year course, like a full 12 month one, and when, in the first or second session, I'll start the conversation with right, so in a year's time, what you're going to do to make money out of what you've learned this year, and and and then keep having that conversation again and again and again to push them to make plans, to have things that they start, because the other, the other thing is it or everything always takes a long time to actually between having the idea or being asked to do a job and getting paid. And the idea is that I want them to start getting the ball rolling on that and having things that they've got in the, in the pipework, and ideas they've started to put into place so that when they leave they can focus on it more, but also money starting to come in already. So, yeah, I definitely definitely say that.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Fantastic. It kind of segues ish nicely into the next part then, which is kind of we've got the educational side of things and building that experience. So I like to move on to now really is the actual, the mixing side of things that this podcast episode in particular is going to sort of centre around that, that that mix engineering specifically for those who are learning, and obviously they're going to be bits and pieces in there for the, for the experts and the intermediates as well. So I mean, the first question really I think is quite good one and it kind of links to. I listened to the podcast podcast, the production expert podcast that you did yourself with Mike Exeter as well.

Speaker 1: 14:39

Okay, yeah he's the guy that gave me my first job. Mike Exeter was working at your mental studio. Yeah well, he was working at you before he stood here. Who is the chief engineer there? So when I got that first job out of working with Mike Exeter, it was him that gave it to me.

Speaker 2: 14:51

How amazing. And he's worked with some big bands Sabbath Priest, beanie and Metalhead that immediately I was like, okay, oh, really yeah, well, that was the first session I did there.

Speaker 1: 14:59

The very first session was Tony. I owe me recording some, some demos with Glenn Hughes singing and Don Airey on keys and Mike did it as the in house engineer and basically Mike's work with Tony I owe me. Tony. I owe me since then he's been his engineer since then that came out as the the debt. That's amazing.

Speaker 2: 15:20

Yeah yeah that's what. That's what. That's one hell of a session for your first session to say really was, it was quite mad.

Speaker 1: 15:27

Yeah, that is.

Speaker 2: 15:29

Yeah, I think, yeah, I'd be. I would struggle not to be an expert or just watching him play guitar and not taking everything else around in the engineering and everything else that's going on. It was quite fantastic.

Speaker 1: 15:42

But also fair play to Mike for putting a brand new kid on on a session. That was important, you know, but yeah, I was obviously a lucky charm though, as he's still working with it.

Speaker 2: 15:56

So yeah, this kind of leads off from that exit, that that episode in particular of the production expert podcast. So it's kind of like the question beings if you could tell audience bit about the difference between sort of a radio friendly, sort of professional mix and a novice mix. Now you run the mix consultancy, which will touch on in a bit, but when you receive those mixes in because I'm assuming that they're various degrees of quality, what generally separates that sort of entry level mix to that professional mix?

Speaker 1: 16:26

There's two things I think that are key really, which take a while to learn, and one of them I think people know and the other one people don't. And the one that I think people know is about EQing things so they sit together and there's space in the mix and there's clarity around the different instruments that are there and that allows the dynamic of the track to come through as well, so it not only helps the individual sounds but also allows the dynamic of the song to come through, because once you've got instruments sitting together nicely, you can start pushing them up and down and do what you want with them, because they're not fighting with each other for a certain amount of space. And that's the big thing. I think I find a lot with people that mix consultancy that I help them with is to hear that clash where those problems are happening, because that's, I think, the thing that takes so long to learn when you're just sat there on your own learning how to mix.

Speaker 1: 17:16

And the reason why I came up with the idea with the mix and something, in fact, was after one particularly revelatory experience that I had where I was an assistant on a session. It was there's a very big band. I don't think I'm allowed to say who it was, but it's very big band with decades worth of recordings and we were going through everything and digitizing it because it was all on tape just putting into Pro Tools and going and a rough mix of each one, because it was a band that sort of did a lot of jamming as well as writing, so there were a lot of jams that might turn into songs. They just wanted to know what they have recorded. You know that, in case there was anything useful that they wanted to revisit for the next record. So there were three rooms running three engineers, three assistants, of which I was one, and one guy who was producing, overseeing the whole thing, who was also a mix engineer too and who I'd worked with loads. I knew him well. So what happened was the engineer that I was working with was ill for a couple of days. So Chris, who was producing it, said to me look, don, can you just step in and do what we've been doing for a couple of days and you know, load them into Pro Tools, do a quick, rough mix and when every rough mix, just give me a call and I'll come down and just spend 20 minutes, you know, just finishing it off, which for me was just a golden opportunity to do it as good as I could do it. And then I have somebody with 20 years of experience sit down and go, right, here's what I'm going to change from here. So then I was looking over his shoulder, going, okay, he's changed that one that sounds so much better from that little tweak. I didn't realize there was a problem there, but now he's changed it. I can hear it. So it was a huge thing for me in a couple of days. I learned so much just from leaning over and hearing what he had heard and how he changed it. So that's what I. You know.

Speaker 1: 18:57

The idea with the MIPS consultants is that people can send stuff into me, and I've been doing this for 25 years, so I've probably got a bit of experience on quite a lot of people and I can just go right Well, these are the changes that I would do if I was sat in front of this MIPS. Now I can hear problems at 300 hertz in the guitar or 80 hertz in the kick drum and recommend a change, which will normally be generally about the ballpark of where it ends up being, apparently from the feedback I get from people that use it. But the important thing is what I find really inspiring about doing it, because I'll do that and you know I'll send someone a PDF of here's what I changed. Here's all the things I've changed with this track, and it's a lot of it is EQ stuff just to clear everything out, make it all sound great. But then what's great is people use it again and again and again. They use the service. I get quite a lot of people that once they've used it, once you know, realize that it's helping them a lot and they get much better very quickly because they can hear it. Then you know they hear that problem that I spot in the guy. Oh yeah, so then that doesn't happen the next time. So it's a really interesting process that getting the stuff, the repeat business from people and realizing how quickly they're learning how to get better at mixing.

Speaker 1: 20:04

The other thing that people don't realize, I think, is how important automation and balance is to moving a mix from being good to being great. And I think the tale I always tell my students is I watched an interview with Andy Wallace, who I think is an incredible mix engineer and does a lot of rock stuff, and he said he spends about 45 minutes doing all the EQ, compression effects, balance, and he's got probably three assistants that do most of this. You know setting up a mix for him, but 45 minutes to get a mix together is not a lot of time. That's extremely quick. He's been doing it for like twice as long as I have, so he should be fast but even so. But then he said he spends 10 hours on a mix. So the rest of the time he's doing these little automation moves and moving things around so that everything hits at exactly the right time. And really you're drawing the point of what you're doing there.

Speaker 1: 21:00

The job of the mixer is to draw the listener's attention to the right thing at every beat of the mix. So you know the listener is always hearing the vocal or that little grace note on the snare or the fill in the bass or the delay you set off on the guitar. That was a cool little sound to fill that gap and pushing the listener's interest around. That is all about automation and it's a sort of it's an odd task because you set up a nice balance and everything sounded good and then you start getting into the automation and it sort of falls apart a bit while you're doing stuff on the drums or stuff in the guitars or vocals, and your balance falls apart, so it always sounds worse before it sounds better. But then at the end, when you've actually got it nailed, having done some good EQ work before, compression effects are working, all of that stuff getting the automation works of the dynamics of the song are being served properly and is a difference to a good and a great mix.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Fantastic. So you've got two things there, haven't you? So it's sort of like the EQ and the clarity, as you mentioned there, and the automation. What about compression? Because compression, having spoken to and being involved with a lot of the listeners, and compression is something that comes up a lot what pitfalls might be the wrong word, but what challenges do you see in a novice mix with regards to compression?

Speaker 1: 22:15

The first one has been able to hear what it's doing, because I know I couldn't. When I started out I had no idea. When I first started studio people were putting compression on and talking about compression and I was like nodding and grinning and going, yeah, I can't hear the difference, I don't know what they're talking about. And then, and then finally got to go in the studio on my own because obviously this is pre DAWs, you know, I didn't get a chance to do anything on my own and play with it. So then I sort of put something through a compressor and slammed it. I went, oh okay, well, that's doing it wrong, because that's too much. But then if I peel it back then I can notice how it sort of starts to make things pump a little bit. And then you put a couple of things together and they start pumping together and oh, I can see how this is a good thing. I understand it a bit better now. So so that's challenge one is actually hearing what it's doing without doing it too much, without sort of, you know, absolutely slamming everything. But then then I think the other thing that people get confused by a lot is is settings like like attack and release. Not all compressors have those on, obviously, but but if you do, I always say, like, with release, set it to release in time with the music. That's, that's your best safe option. So watch the needle go back in time with the music and then, and then you know you're pulling everything to be moving in time. So you help in the groove of the song by doing that and then, with the time starts slow, starts slow, so it's not really doing anything, and then go faster and faster on the attack time is still, it starts to grab the thing that you are trying to compress and then and then and then leave it when it sounds good is the bottom line. So that that's attack and release is that's what I sort of recommend, is when you're learning and start doing that. And the other thing I think is, again it sort of reaches into the automation.

Speaker 1: 24:19

Don't use compressors to level out your mix. Use automation to do that. Use compressors to make things grabby and punchy and exciting, because that's what they're really good at At leveling things out. They're OK. That's. That was all we had back in like the 70s and 60s and 50s. We only had compressors. We didn't have automation, so you had to use it to sort of squash things, whereas these days that's better done with automation and with with compressors, you can use them for what they're really good at nowadays, which is making things punchy and exciting.

Speaker 2: 24:51

Yeah, I've really learned the idea of what you said about the attack and release, because I remember when I was starting out and admittedly I haven't been in the industry the game as long as yourself but I would struggle with the attack and release and in terms of what to do and they're very much like you said. Right there is I found it was either a tutorial on article In fact it might have been Bobby Uzinski, it might have been in the Bobby Uzinski mix engineers manual or engineer manual and he said and it said exactly what you said there about yeah, yeah, the slow attack and then the the release in time with the music.

Speaker 1: 25:22

Fantastic, it's not just me. Yeah, that's a good idea.

Speaker 2: 25:26

I've been and I've been doing it ever since and and in the end, and it works wonders and it's a fantastic one. Going back to the EQ, with regards to EQ, if you're just starting out, can you think of any sort of exercises, like ear training exercises or anything along those lines, to help with regards to what EQ is doing and how to balance those frequencies?

Speaker 1: 25:48

I just I don't know about ear training, so what I, what I try and tell people, is put, put a thing in the mix, whatever it might be, start with one thing and then add another thing and see if you can hear a problem. That where it's not as clear as it was before, it doesn't sound as good as it was before, and where is that? Because there's no, there's normally somewhere. Unless you've got a kick and a high hat, you know that are so far apart, doesn't matter. But say, put two guitars or guitar and a piano or a couple of synths together or stuff, and and go OK, where is the problem? Where does it sound? Muddy and confused and busy? Where, where it's not separated, and what you've got there is is an area where they both have a presence and they both are, you know, have a reasonable, you know, volume in that frequency, but they're not both allowed it because it sounds worse. So you've got to make a call on who gets to win at that point, and so so then just boost you know, I mean I still do this all the time boost and sweep around. So boost up through a 4 dB or whatever you want to do, sweep that around till you hear the point where you go, I am that frequency, that's the one that I don't like, and then take that out of one or the other and and and see who sounds better without it. So it might be you take it out of the guitar and it's like well, now the guitars lost what we need from the guitar by taking that frequency out. Therefore it's got to go from the synth or the piano. Because, because you can't lose the, the main sort of focus of the guitar by doing this, so, like for a good example, I do it with the vocal.

Speaker 1: 27:26

When I start a mix is, I find, like a present frequency of the vocal normally sort of between two and three K, which is sort of the peak sensitivity of human hearing, because that's where voices, you know, are most present. So I find a spot there by by doing a boost and a sweep and and there's normally a point where it feels like the singers just stepped forward a foot. You know that is just a little bit more present when a boost that frequency ago. Ok, that's their spot, nothing else is allowed there. So in everything from now, then I do, you know, make a note of the frequency and then for the rest of the mix. Everything else has to have a dip there because the vocal has to be there. There's nothing that can fight with the vocal. So I don't care who you are you might be a snare drum, you might be a great guitar sound. You ain't going in that frequency because the vocals got it.

Speaker 2: 28:10

Yeah, that's a fantastic tip because I think, with vocals in particular, now the podcast itself is sort of centered and it focuses on, like, the synth side of things and since, since music, which is why I was further for the audience. If you're watching this, this podcast, you'll see there's an array of modular synths in the background there in Dom's, in Dom's studio, which is incredibly impressive. But yeah, and I do get the question, a lot of vocal and in terms of bringing vocal, because a lot of synth wave tracks and synth music, I say a lot, a vast majority of it is instrumental and bringing those vocals in. And that's a really cool way of doing it and I like the idea of just saying and being rigid and strict and saying nothing else is going to go in that spot that I've picked out with with that EQ suite.

Speaker 1: 28:55

And as he's quite often I see I see things on, for I really shouldn't go on forums. But occasionally I go on forums and I see people saying you know, how do I get white? Why isn't my vocal fitting in this track? And then somebody will suggest like a 10 plug in chain.

Speaker 1: 29:10

I'm just like oh God it's just like the guitars are in the same spot as the vocals. It's never is nothing you can do to that vocal to make it fit. You do it to the guitars and make some space for it and then it'll be fine and easy moving the guitars and everything's done. So that sort of thing is yeah, it's once you, and again it's sort of the thing with the maintenance on, so once you've you've, you've done it a few times, it's sort of it. Kind of it's obvious. You know you hear it straight away because you sort of you used to listening for it.

Speaker 2: 29:36

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that, with regards to the plug in chains, because scrolling through the Internet, scrolling through social media and I see various posts every now and again I see quite every now and again quite a lot and it's just plug in, chain off. The plug in chain off, the plug in, which is great, but a lot of the time, as you say, that it's not necessarily the plug in chain, that your plug ins or whatever it is you're using. That's the issue. It's that frequency balance. So there's another question I wanted off the back of this, but before we go on to that, my next question was going to be you mentioned there about the vocals. So when you're actually starting a mixed session, which instrument group are you starting with, or does it vary depending on the project?

Speaker 1: 30:12

Well, I do that thing with a vocal and then I do the drums. That's always my route. So I know where the hole's got to be for the vocal. And then, because the drums define the kick defines the bottom end, the snare defines the mid-range and the hi-hats and cymbals define the top. So once you've got those in place then you can start fitting the instruments in. But I would I would hate to have to fit drums in after the fact you know, because they are everywhere. So I'd hate to have to try and fit that in after I'd got in all the rest of the instrumentation. That would be a pain. So that's always the route I go.

Speaker 2: 30:45

Yeah, it's a similar route that I follow myself and in other discussions I've heard other engineers do that as well. With regards to the drums, admittedly I've no, I don't think I've ever started a mix with the vocals first, but certainly something I'm going to try going forward now because it's been in the being a sort of engineer producer myself and quite new to new to the game, as it were, compared to yourself. It's still learning that and I find the vocal chain is probably the vocal chain probably don't want to use that term, but the vocals being the hardest bit of the mix to get right and I think actually maybe doing it first is the way to make space for it.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Yeah, make sure every time you bring in an element in, it's not fighting with the vocal because it's not allowed to.

Speaker 2: 31:26

Yeah, and I think what I've noticed yeah, exactly, and what I've noticed in mixes that I've done myself is that when I've left the vocal to the end and I've got all this other stuff going on and I'm just like shit, where does that vocal go now?

Speaker 1: 31:40

And I don't know why.

Speaker 2: 31:44

Yeah, and then I go through track by track and I'm like right, I'm gonna have to get rid of that, I'm gonna have to get rid of that, I'm gonna have to get rid of that, get rid of that. And then I'm like I'm just gonna have to write the song you like, produce the song all over again. Yes, so audience listening vocals first. The vocals first.

Speaker 1: 32:00

Yeah, and to be honest, I don't really go to town with it. I don't go to town with I know some people who do the whole vocal sound first and then carry on. I just find out the main present frequency in that mid range and go, okay, I know it's got to be there, and then I move on. So there'll be more that I do afterwards, but I just need to know that bit.

Speaker 2: 32:20

So it's actually just picking out the sort of frequency, that that pivotal frequency, and then the actual rest of the processing will be done further down the line.

Speaker 1: 32:27

Yeah, yeah. But there are other people that do it the other way. I know people that start with the vocal sound, particularly, I think, more often than not people working real pop stuff, and that I've known people do that where they get the whole vocal sound effects, compression, the works and then start bringing other things in.

Speaker 2: 32:47

That's an interesting way of doing it, because if you were to start with them, with the, with all that to begin with, and then you bring other instrumentation in, would you not need to then go back and adjust? Well, I suppose you're going to do it anyway and adjust that, those that vocal processing that you do you do, do it anyway.

Speaker 1: 33:05

You know, when you do in a mix, it's not like you. You know you set up your bass sound and then and then that's done. I'll never touch that again. You know you always. You know tweaking stuff and going back in and interesting kind of segues nicely.

Speaker 2: 33:16

Then on to the next part, which is imagine, we've gone through all this process, then, and we've gone through the mix. We're relatively happy. How do you know when the mix is finished and ready to put to bed? Now, this is something that I struggle with personally a lot, and I go through the. I go, I can go through binge editing and I can be sat there and just binging and doing it needlessly. Yeah, I slap myself on the wrist for doing it.

Speaker 1: 33:40

I have a set process for this, which actually I thought loads of people did. And then I said I do like a monthly chat with a couple other guys who I trained with back in the tropolists and we sort of because we used to do this sitting around the coffee machine and we don't do that because we're all in our own little studios so so I do a monthly zoom with those guys and and and I brought it up, my process and I thought everyone did it and they didn't. They hadn't heard of this. So what I do is so I have two sets of speakers. I have some Neumann's and some Yanaha NS10s, and then I have two sets of headphones that I use for mixing as well.

Speaker 1: 34:16

I have some grade os and and then these things called Rossin Audio ones, which are very nice platforms, and and what I do is I pick one of those things for my first pass. So I've got the sound, everything's kind of together, but I need to get into automation now to get the thing finished. So I pick one of those things and go from start to finish doing everything that I can hear, everything that I think needs doing. So maybe say it's on the Neumann's to do everything, so it sounds finished to me on the noise. Then I go on to another one of probably I'll go into the grade os, do the same from start to finish. Then I go into the NS10s same thing, then I go into the Rossin's same thing there and then back to the Neumann's for last pass, and at that point I probably can't hear anything I want to change. And once I've done the last pass on the thing that I started on, I'm done.

Speaker 1: 35:05

So you're sort of trialling on different systems or different listening environments headphones, and then some kind of doing the mix, going through doing all my automation moves, everything that I want to do, and then I'm jumping on a different set of monitors and doing the same thing where there's always less you know there's less for each of each round, there's far less to do.

Speaker 1: 35:23

but it just means I know I'm not missing anything because I'm checking out on all my different systems and and making the changes that I hear on there. And then you know I do, I have got these different ones because they all do sound a little bit. I like the sound of them all, but they are all a bit different. So, yeah, yes, that works.

Speaker 2: 35:38

But the guards are different, different listening environments. I sort of audition mixes and productions in the car and I hear conflicting stories with that. I hear, or I rather I read some individuals will say no, you shouldn't do that, and others will say, well, yes, you should. What are your opinions on auditioning sort of in a car environment?

Speaker 1: 35:58

You should do if it works. You know if you, if you can sit in the car and you hear your mix and you hear something that's not right about it, and then you go and change that thing that you heard and it sounds better than a great listening environment for you. And it's just like you know, with with these headphones, these, these speakers, they won't work for some people but they work for me, so it's great. The car thing didn't work very well for me so I stopped doing it. It might just been I didn't like stereo is, particularly the cars that I had. I've got a new car now with a nice stereo, so maybe I'll start doing it back on the bottom of what I've got at the moment works. So let's not, let's not mess with that too much. But no, I think.

Speaker 1: 36:40

I think any of those kind of rules that people set is like I find a bit weird. Like when people say you can't mix on headphones. Well, you can, and if your mixes sound really good on headphones, then keep doing it. So yeah, and that there's slight, there's very slight technical things that people say about it. But this tiny technical thing is like, yeah, but people, if you know that and you know your headphones will. You work around that and you know that that's the case is like you know.

Speaker 1: 37:05

There's people that suffer from minor levels of hearing loss. That a mix engineer is and and they work around it, their perception deals with it and they turn out brilliant mixes. And I was speaking to a mastering engineer recently said it always used to be the case back in like the 80 up to the end of the 80s that people would come into mastering and go. I've got a bit of a hole in my hearing about 500 hertz, so there might be something odd there. But there you go and then they carry on and be a brilliant mix and there'll be something about odd about that. So all those things, those little limitations that everybody has either in themselves or in their room or in their whatever. So as you know what they are, you can carry on and get a great job.

Speaker 2: 37:42

Yeah, I agree with that. I've spoken to numerous producers and I know I know a few off the top of my head and who mix predominantly with headphones and their mixes sound great and the production sound great. I did know this is way back when I was. I was studying music production and there was a there was a lad and he was mixing using Apple in ear headphones and his yeah, I don't know and his, his production sounded amazing and he'd obviously attuned them so he'd done it so much. He was so attuned to using them and how they translated, he got it totally dialed in, which was incredibly impressive, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:15

So it kind of leads on to the next bit then, with regards to miss, misconceptions and myths. So with regards to mix engineering, what do you think is the biggest sort of misconception or myth that maybe someone who's starting out would read or hear?

Speaker 1: 38:29

Hmm, good point. I think probably any of those aforementioned rules, I think are misconceptions and myths the idea that you can't do something, and I was trying to remember that when I'm telling people how I do stuff or how I'd recommend to do stuff.

Speaker 1: 38:47

And yet, unless you don't agree with that, or unless you think that sounds rubbish, in which case don't do it. And I do that in the mixed consultancy stuff as well. I try and flag up like this comment is slightly in the realms of production rather than mixing Like it's. Like. This is a taste comment, so try it, see if you like it. If you don't sack it off, it doesn't matter. But it's just, I always try and approach it like what would I do if I was sat here? Here's what I would do, right, so that's that's. I try and check myself on that sort of thing. But yeah, I think if you ever hear anyone sort of saying oh, you can't, you can't monitor on those, you can't listen on that, you shouldn't do this, that plug-ins not for that is for this. You can't mix with plugins. It's got to be analogous, got to be digital, etc. Etc. Etc. All of that's nonsense. All that matters is what comes out the speakers. Does it sound good? If it does, you've nailed it.

Speaker 2: 39:40

Yeah, exactly that, and it's a case of, like the end listeners not going to really care too much about the process of putting it together.

Speaker 2: 39:49

Exactly, exactly, exactly that. And it leads on again to this next question and it kind of falls under maybe it does fall under the myths and misconceptions. And this regards to sort of mixing and then mastering, because a lot of the audience do mix and master, that they produce, they write, produce, mix, master their own music. What is what is your opinion on mixing and mastering your own music? Should you get, maybe, someone else to master it, is it? Yeah, basically that is the question Do you think it's worthwhile getting a second set of ears to master that music, if it is possible and it falls within your sort of budget?

Speaker 1: 40:23

Yes, always. Yes, I would always do that if I could, and I think I've won sort of twice mastered something that I've mixed myself. But I feel it's a bit like marking your own homework if you do that, whereas if I send it to someone else, then then then I'm getting a second set of professional ears listening to the mix in a different room which is also good, you know on different speakers than all my lot, and getting their kind of take on it. So yeah, I would always recommend to do that. I know it is a budgetary thing, but I think that the problem that I think is sort of crept into music production is it seems that people think it's the norm to mix and master something like it's a one process and it's one person's job and it isn't, and I don't think it should be. I understand that sometimes that's how things go, just like sometimes you know you're better off as a performer, somebody else doing the engineering for you. So all you have to think about is the performance. You don't have to think about how things are rooted and all that sort of stuff. You can focus on the one job that you've got, which is performing, and if you've got an engineer, they can do their bit and you get a better result on both ends. That doesn't always happen. Sometimes you got to do it yourself. Do all the jobs yourself. Same with mixing, mastering Sometimes you just have to do it and that's how life is. But if you get an opportunity to get someone else to cast their areas over it and go this is perhaps a little bit heavy here, I think you can push it this much on the compression, blah, blah, blah Then I would always do that.

Speaker 1: 42:00

The one sort of thing that I think people need to be aware of with using other mastering engineers, using other people to do it is be aware of how you want your track to sound and let them know if they didn't do that, because I have had mixed experiences with mastering engineers and the ones I use now.

Speaker 1: 42:20

I've found a few guys that use a lot and they sit there and listen to the mix and go, okay, that's what he's aiming for, and then they just make that better. And occasionally in the past I've had people go, oh right, he's probably got that wrong. Then I'm going to change this completely and I'm like, well, that's not what we wanted, because my mix got the OK from the band. Everyone was happy, and so now you're supposed to just make that a bit better with the mastering job, hear any problems whatever, but not completely change it. So that's just the only bit of advice I'd give if you're sort of new to farming. Mastering out to other people is be aware that if the mix is signed off and okay, everyone likes it, that's what everyone wants, and it just needs to be a slightly embellished version of that, not something completely different.

Speaker 2: 43:08

Yeah, fantastic advice, and do you think it's worth? With mastering, finding a mastering engineer who specializes in the specialist might be the wrong word, but their wheelhouse is the genre of music that you're working within, because I guess mastering engineers, they they're quite broad, aren't they, in terms of what they master. Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1: 43:27

I know that that often happens. I mean, it happens in all areas of the industry. Really, there's people get known for doing certain things and it's mostly because you've done those things a bit and people recognize you for it and go oh well, he did that record that sounds a bit like mine, so so he can have mine now. And then you just end up down a sort of you know a bit of a path. It's something I've tried to avoid if at all possible, because I think keeps like more interesting if you're doing like a variety of things but but but then you sort of end up you end up doing a better job on things that you understand more, I think. So that that kind of does make a bit bit of sense. Like I don't do a lot, or I don't do any hip hop, I don't do any kind of black metal you know, those are things I don't listen to.

Speaker 1: 44:15

So it's not stuff that I would I would do a good job on. I don't think so and unfortunately I don't get offered it. So I don't have to say no to anybody, because they've also not seen any of that on a CV. So it's fine, it all works out okay.

Speaker 1: 44:28

But yeah, I would you know there's no harm in looking about in the CV and if none of it's what you are into or want to sound like, then maybe find somebody where the CV does look like something you want to sound like, because that's what they're working on every day, if it's a certain sort of thing. So there's no harmony. Yeah, I don't think it's vital, but I think it might make things a little smoother.

Speaker 2: 44:50

Yeah. So I suppose that the key bit of information or advice there would be is obviously, I think if you're going to choose a mastering engineer, is to go check out their CV, their portfolio of music that they've done and see if it sort of resonates with the music that you have, and then you'd be able to make a sort of an informed decision from that.

Speaker 1: 45:05

Yeah, and they'll probably understand what you're aiming for, because that's the sort of stuff they work on every day. So yeah, Fantastic Don.

Speaker 2: 45:11

Well, I will. We were all 40 minutes in already and what I'm going to move on to now. So the inside the mix podcast has a Facebook community group and in there when I'm doing an interview, I will post and say if you've got questions you like me to put toward the interview, we do post them. So I've got three questions here. So the first one is from Maurice, a key, cool Moe, and he asks is it different to mix for vinyl? And if you do well, he's actually got two questions. So that's the first one.

Speaker 2: 45:38

Is it different if you make, if you're mixing for vinyl?

Speaker 1: 45:41

No, that's a mastering process. Mixing will be exactly the same and mastering it's an um. You know, as a not mastering engineer, I'm going to explain this really badly, and mastering engineers, if they're hearing this, are going to be shouting. But the way I understand it is, in order to get it onto the vinyl, you have to do certain things about mono in the base and being careful how much space you put on it, because that can cause the needle to jump if there's too much, because the cuts to deep and things like that. So there's a technical process that means you have to master it slightly differently. So it's so if you are mastering a record you know an album you might master it separately for a digital upload than you would for vinyl, because there's different considerations.

Speaker 2: 46:27

Fantastic, thanks for that. And so, basically, the mix is essentially the same, and then it falls into the master, the realm of mastering.

Speaker 1: 46:32

Then for the, for the vinyl, the only thing actually one thing is if you had a super stereo base, I think that wouldn't get on vinyl and then have to do something about that. So you might want to think about that when you're mixing. I think that's the only, the only consideration. I would do is if I'd like a really big stereo base sound. I think you might not fit on vinyl or like anything so so yeah, Fantastic.

Speaker 2: 46:53

So the next question for Maurice is I think this ties in quite well actually to the Loopmaster, the Stranger Synths we're talking about a long Stranger Synths Loopmaster project that you went with. So his next question is what is your approach for sync projects and TV? Now, he was a bit vague with that one, though I'm assuming he means with regards to the production, how?

Speaker 1: 47:19

does that?

Speaker 2: 47:19

sort of start.

Speaker 1: 47:20

Yeah, so the only thing that I've done like that is those sub-proper projects. I don't work on production albums or sync stuff, so I haven't got an angle on that. The only thing, the story behind that one was simply that I had a load of friends go text me and email me and said if you've seen this Stranger Things series, you'd love the soundtrack. It sounds just like the sort of music you make. So then I checked it out and thought, oh yeah, it does. I could probably do a sample pack of stuff that sounds a bit like that and people might be into it. So that's how that came about.

Speaker 2: 47:56

Opportunist. Oh, I see, yeah, fantastic. So did you do a lot of the total tangent here? Do you do a lot of sort of your own synth productions? Because obviously with the modular synths you've got on the background there.

Speaker 1: 48:05

With time permitting I guess there's the big phrase, time permitting, which it isn't. So I did a four track EP under the name Five Pages, which is five as a V, like the Roman numeral thing. So if you look up V pages on your streaming platform of choice, there's a four track EP there which is a bit synthy. First track is a bit more guitar. There's a few guitars on it, but it's mostly synthy stuff and some friends singing. That's all I've actually put out myself. This ends up on other people's records. Basically, either, as you know, if I'm mixing and my puts stuff through it or recommend they send a MIDI file with a synth part and you know I can, you know, embellish or replace or something, or just if I'm producing something, you know this will end up on that somewhere.

Speaker 2: 48:52

Fantastic, excellent stuff. I'll go and check that out Five pages on my streaming platform of choice. Brilliant stuff. In fact. What I'll do is I'll put a link in the show notes for this episode so the audience can go away and have a listen to that as well. So the next question is from Chaco Daniel so he's a producer called Tholoss asks how do you dial in modern retro sounds during mixing? And he cites the Amy Winehouse Back to Black album. That's quite a broad question there.

Speaker 1: 49:22

Well, the first thing I'm going to say is that was mixed by Tom Elmhurst, not me, I recorded most of that, but he mixed it. But I can certainly tell you how we recorded it to sound modern, retro, which was a conversation with Mark Vonson who produced half the album. Salam Rami did the other half. But probably if you only know the singles you know more Mark's ones. And he said about wanting to sound old 60s girl group, phil Spector, those kind of sounds. Because I was doing first session with strings, a string session, and I think that's we had brass and orchestral percussion on.

Speaker 1: 50:01

In one day it was like quite a big kind of full on shipping things in and out of the recording room. So I set up a lot of valve mics and a lot of ribbon mics because those were the mics they had in those days. That was the process that they had. So I thought, well, let's try and be as authentic as we can by using the gear that they had. But then also, what I sort of thought as well you know books about those sort of things is a really good biography of Phil Spector, which is really interesting. But what they would do in those days often is they would have one mic in the room. They wouldn't. They didn't have the capability to mic everything up individually. So it'd be just one mic or a few mics that would cover the room and then you move the instruments closer or further away depending on how loud you want them to be.

Speaker 1: 50:44

So I thought, as an aside, I'd put a ribbon mic in the studio that we were recording in had like a big. There's a bit of glass and concrete in a plaster, unfortunately, but there was some wooden bits and there was like a shell shaped wooden thing covering the corner like the inside of a shell. So I put a ribbon mic up there to catch some room sound with an old mic, that sort of thing. And then, speaking to Tom afterwards when he was mixing or after he mixed it, that was that mic was what he used for most of the string sound, and then he just fed things into it from there. So that was a way of getting those to sound.

Speaker 1: 51:17

Old was simply by using the techniques that they used and the equipment that they used. And there you go. That's how they did it. So that's how we'll do it. Yeah, so in terms of mixing, there's a few things you can do that are little tricks, like, for example, if you set up the same room, reverb or small hall, that's kind of you know, and everything goes to that a little bit. That's how they were recorded in those days because everything was in the same room. There was, like Phil Spector used a room called Gold Star where he did everything, and so that can start to sound a little bit retro by the fact that that's you know, that's that all sounds like it's in the same space and not going too bright on things, because they didn't, things weren't recorded that bright, so concentrate more on warm and mellow is another one.

Speaker 2: 52:05

Fantastic. It's interesting that you mentioned Phil Spector there, because, as what's the date today? It's the 11th of November I've challenged myself I don't know why I've done this with writing a Christmas song or covering a Christmas song, and I've been listening to Phil Spector's Christmas album, the finest Christmas album there is.

Speaker 2: 52:25

It is very good. What I was doing is I've been on a music sort of theory and composition and arrangement binge of late and I think, right, how are these songs put together? So I've been looking around online and then listening to songs and thinking, okay, this goes there, that goes there, what chords are they using? Corporate crashings and all that sort of things, and it's really interesting actually, which is why it's led me down this Phil Spector route. But it's exactly what you mentioned there about the particular sound you have, because when you listen to it it sounds like one microphone. But I guess it wouldn't sound the same if it was recorded. No, it wouldn't have that character.

Speaker 1: 52:57

No, no it's that wall of sound thing which is cool. Interestingly, I did work with Phil Spector once just as an assistant and I got him to sign my copy of the Christmas album, which I was very pleased about. But he said it was a good story. He said it took about nine months to put that album together with the writing and the recording and everything. It was a big project for him because it was on his label. It was like I'm going to be rich because I'm going to make the best Christmas album ever. And he said and then just before Christmas Kennedy was shot and Christmas was cancelled in America. So then he did nothing because nobody was really they weren't going for it the way they had and it took him years to recoup what he spent on it. But then obviously since then it's been massive. But yeah, it was quite funny that that totally went very badly for quite a while.

Speaker 2: 53:49

Yeah, that's quite the anecdote. That's not great when I have well, I say when that happens like it's happened a lot. But yeah, that is incredibly unfortunate. But I think he's probably done quite well. Off the back of it I want to say it was re-released. I could be wrong. This was late last night when I was researching the foundations of a Christmas song. So the final question is from another community member called Dan Maloney, and his question is when so much is possible inside the box, is investing in really pricey mic preamps worthwhile, or would a good microphone and decent plug-in be better? I suppose a good example of that would be like. There's the slate digital mic emulation, which you buy, the slate digital mic, and then you have various different mic modelings within their software.

Speaker 2: 54:39

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:41

Unfortunately I'm not particularly the best guy to answer that on the basis that I haven't used any of those. I haven't used the modeling mics. I've heard good things. There was the Townsend one as well, which won an award for best mic not even best modeling mic just as a great sound mic which then got bought by Universal Audio, the company. So I think that's turned into Universal Audio's mic, if they've got one out it's that one you know or whatever.

Speaker 1: 55:06

If not, one's coming out soon and it's that. So I'm not sure. I guess maybe my advice would be to get something. If you want to go that route of using a variety of different things, it's still worth getting something that's high quality because you still want the best signal going in to the DAW. You know, if you have a bad signal going into a DAW that's not very clear, there's not much. You can only color it from there. You can't make it better and clearer.

Speaker 1: 55:37

So if that's the route you want to go, I'd recommend getting a nice quality one, but something that's quite clean. So like a Neavon, for example, is great but it's fairly colored and which is a nice. You know that's what I would go for, but then that's the choice I've made. You know I've made it sound like that, or I have a couple of valve ones that I really like. So that's the choice I would make there.

Speaker 1: 55:59

But if you went for something like, you know, a Grace Designs or a Millennial or something, they're companies that are known for making gear that's really high quality and really clean, and then from there in you can then change it however you like and that change will have the effect that you're looking for, because you've got a full, clean signal going in. So I think there's always an argument for having the best quality signal as far along the chain as you can get it, like a friend of mine used to describe. He says his Woodward teacher used to say keep your wood as long as you can for as long as you can, meaning once you start chopping bits off you can't put them back together again. So once you start de-gregating your signal you can't make it posture again.

Speaker 2: 56:43

So it's best just to keep it as clean and posh as you can for as long as possible until you want to start making decisions about it not being yeah, I really like that analogy and it makes perfect sense and it kind of falls or it pairs nicely with the idea of getting it right at source when you're recording. So getting it right at source before, right at that beginning there, because, yeah, as you say there, if it's not there to begin with, putting it in or adding it can be tricky, if not impossible. Yeah, no, that's fantastic, thank you. Yeah, brilliant answers to those, dom, and I hope that's for those three listening and the audience as well as answer those questions I'm sure it has. So the final bit really is touching on the mixed consultancy, because I think it could be a fantastic thing for a lot of our listeners. Now, I came across the mixed consultancy because I interviewed a producer called One Equals Two, brandon Ganch, a few months ago and he mentioned that he used your service.

Speaker 1: 57:35

Yeah, he has. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, he did a few things on that record. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good. It was a good example, actually, of you know. He did a few tracks. We worked on a few tracks together and he got better and better as they went along. So, yeah, it was good.

Speaker 2: 57:52

Yeah, yeah, he mentioned it and he signed post me in your direction. So audience listening. If you want to go and check out that particular episode is episode 35, do so after listening to this one, obviously, but there's episode 35 with One Equals Two. So I know you touched on it briefly earlier, but can you just give us a really quick sort of breakdown of the mixed consultancy, Because I know there's also tutorial elements and courses involved in it as well, if I'm not mistaken?

Speaker 1: 58:18

Yeah, kind of Well yeah, there are some of those. So basically the idea is it's a bit like I explained earlier. I managed to get my head over the another engineer once, who had 20 years of experience with me, saw what he did to my mixes and I learned a ton in that period. So I thought, how can I make that available to people that can't afford, for time or money reasons, full-time education in music production? So I thought, well, I can do that, I can offer people that. So you upload your mix to me. And then there were two sort of packages this gold or platinum, and gold is I. Then I listen to it, I write down all the things that I would change at that point and then I send you a PDF with all of those things. If you buy the platinum one, you then make the changes, do whatever you like to the mix, send it back to me. I check it from there and I write another list of the things that I would change from here, send that to you. Then you send, make the changes, send it back to me and then I do a third round of. Normally they get smaller as they move along because we're closing in on stuff, but things do change as you develop the mix through the changes I've suggested. So then you get a third round where I send do your PDF with that. So that's golden platinum packages of that.

Speaker 1: 59:29

The reason why there's a course that I have available I made a course on how to record vocals, and the reason why I did that is a lot of the problems that I hear are actually from people not having recorded the vocal very well and their mixed problems would be mostly or largely easier or gone if they had a really good sounding vocal that was really well performed.

Speaker 1: 59:53

So in the recording vocals course, which you can get to on the website Mixed and Sonzi, I get into the psychology of it, like how to do pre-production, what to talk about, how to talk about things tempo, lyrics, pitch, all of the things that you need to do and know before you start recording. We talk a little bit about gear and talk about how to run the process of recording and what to do about editing, tuning, all that stuff afterwards, so you can just get a great lead vocal and then you can, you know, mix. It's just so much easier if you've got a great lead vocal to work for. So that's kind of what I've got with the mixed and Sonzi. It's mostly about those kind of the consults. That's why I started it. But then I've got that course there because I know that that's a big part of what would help people get better at mixing as well.

Speaker 2: 1:00:36

Fantastic. And going back to what you said there about the vocal, I suppose it sort of echoes what we mentioned just then about getting it right at source and if you go through that process of learning and education and figuring out actually this is, if I get this vocal, how it should sound before it goes in, like you say, it's going to make it so much easier further down the line.

Speaker 1: 1:00:52

Yeah, and I think people don't realise how much performance makes a difference to mixing. If the performance is great, you know, the mix is easier. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a big part of it, which is why I get into the psychology a lot, because the psychology of the session and you as a producer and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:01:07

Yeah, it's really interesting because I've sort of been more so on the other side of the glass, being the musician being recorded. And the reason why that I then looked at production and mixed engineering and whatnot is because I kind of poked my head around the door and I looked at the computer and I thought actually that's quite interesting and I kind of want to know what he's doing there at that desk and that's sort of how I sort of get into it.

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

The thing I find mad as well. Yeah, the thing I find mad with it is I put a lot into it and you know, when I do a vocal session, I'm thinking about lighting and you know all this sort of stuff. And then there's people that record themselves and go oh well, you know I won't bother with that stuff. I just, you know, I have a cup of tea and then I start singing. Like why am I put? Why do I put more effort into someone's vocal session than they put into their own? Why would you not put that effort into your own vocal?

Speaker 1: 1:01:56

It's your vocal, like. It matters more to you. You know your name's on everything. My name's on it, but your name's bigger, you know, in bigger font than my name is. But I'll put more effort than you were. It's just fun that mad. Like here's all the things you can do that I do to make something better psychologically. Do it to yourself Like learn that and treat yourself in a way that means you will get the best performance. Yeah, it's blows me away that. Okay, so people just go, I don't need to do that. It's like no, you don't need to, but you'll be better if you do.

Speaker 2: 1:02:24

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I totally agree with that because I've fallen far that myself. When I was recording an album many years ago. And when I go into the studio I tune my guitar, I look at the intonation, make sure the the truss rod was set, all right, the Floyd Rose is all good, make sure I had decent picks and everything or my cables were correct. I had everything I needed. But then when I'm sat at home recording, I'm just like I'll just pick my guitar off the wall and I'll start playing and record it and I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:02:52

Yeah, it's exactly that. It's, and maybe it's I don't know it's a convenience thing. You're sort of like it's that relaxed atmosphere you sort of need to take yourself away to another room, or it's like you say. It's the psychology of it, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 1:03:03

It's totally the psychology and you perform better. You perform better, I think, when you've set yourself up to know that your instruments bang on, everything's ready to go, you've got the lights dimmed, your phones off, you know. You know you're ready to record. At that point, and I think you, but I think a lot of people put a bit too much. I mean this might sound a bit weird, but a lot of people put a bit too much emphasis on having a relaxed performance. Sometimes it doesn't want to be relaxed, sometimes it wants to be present and it wants to be urgent and it wants to be, you know, all 100% in the moment, as opposed to, you know, leaning back on each other, doing, oh, that'll do, I got it.

Speaker 2: 1:03:42

Yeah, I agree with that, I totally agree. And having played metal, it was very much, I mean, we couldn't sit back and relax and play. It was all very yeah, and try and stay in time. That was always my. That's why I kind of I think that's why I kind of moved the other way, because I was like I'm not as good as the other guitarist. So I'm going to start honing my skills somewhere else, you know. But now, Tom, thank you very much. We sort of reached the hour mark now and this has been fantastic, and I know the audience listening is. It's going to take so much of work from this, as I have done as well, so a really big thank you for spending the time with me today. This.

Speaker 2: 1:04:20

Friday evening is very, very well. It's fantastic to get your knowledge and spread your knowledge throughout the year for our audience. So a big, big thank you and I'll catch up with you soon, Tom, yeah, Cheers.

Speaker 3: 1:04:35

Hi, this is Ghost Georgie. My favorite episode of Inside the Mix is episode 38 right now because it was cool to hear about Pensacola Mists creative process and working on doing the song's life.